In theory - yes, a big woofer with a small tweeter is a bad idea.
Search for Audio Note or the old-school Snell designs. Some of them had a 3/4" tweeter coupled with an 8" woofer (Snell K), and at hifi shows over here in the UK they always get a lot of good feedback.
Same goes for the BBC LS 3/8 with a 300mm (12") woofer coupled with a 34mm tweeter. A lot of people thought they were the highlight of the Scalford show a few years back (me included).
One of my best friends had the Snell K. It did sound good but not great to me. The mids were not well defined (for my tastes anyway); I attributed it to having a larger woofer with a smaller tweeter. I suggested earlier the OP may wish to look at the SB 16PFC... mid-bass paired with the Vifa/Peerless/Tymphany XT25BG60-04 "ring dome" tweeter. I tried this combination with the older SB square frame PFC (not the newer round basket). This is a very musically satisfying "entry level" 2-way. Bass, mids, treble; all there, all believable. I think this combination is very hard to beat within this "cheapest" price range.
I have some JPW AP2 here that use exactly the same drivers as the old Snell K, and the mids are excellent (that's their strong point). Bass is very tight, but a bit one-note and lacking depth. I haven't heard the mk1 Snell k but when I asked on a forum how they compare to the JPW AP2 everyone said the Snell k was slightly better.
I did always wonder how they could sound that good though because when I modelled the crossover, it looks like they had quite a severe declining frequency response. The main inductor is about 2.7mh (varies slightly) but the big inductor in the JPW AP2 is only 1mh and models flat.
I heard the latest Audio note k at a show quite recently, and they had a similar, very open midrange. I sat in that room for quite a while because I thought they were best I heard that day (Unlike the AN-E).
Hello,
How to deal with the voice coil inductance of the bass driver when designing the low pass filter please and the external serie voice coil ? Do they add to each other ?
How to deal with the voice coil inductance of the bass driver when designing the low pass filter please and the external serie voice coil ? Do they add to each other ?
There a many ways to approach this depending on how much effort and expense you want to deal with. Look at the impedance curve for the driver for starters. As the frequency increases, so does the impedance (curves upwards). [You can't go by the stated "impedance" or VC "inductance" of the driver from the OEM spec. sheet as these values are NOT a constant]. You can design in an impedance compensation network (called Zobel). Not all drivers require this compensation. I recommend you do some research and read up on these topics just to get a basic understanding. There are many free online calculators that you can use to determine crossover component values, Zobel values, etc. This can get you in the ballpark and as a starting point. If you are doing a 3-way for example, the woofer inductance curve will probably still be fairly flat (lower to mid frequencies) but if you are doing a 2-way, the mid-bass driver impedance will usually be in the rising part of the curve at the higher frequencies. This also holds true for the mid-range driver in a 3-way. One thing to keep in mind is the DC resistance of the inductor as this does affect the overall "Q" of the driver.
There are many members of this forum with sophisticated modeling and simulation software and tools that could give you much more precise answers as to component values, types of X/O (order, topology, "Q", attenuation, etc.). I personally don't have or use these wonderful and powerful tools but I like to experiment old school (I'm retired so I have the time and luxury of doing so).
One site I use quite often is mh-audio.nl (there is also a link to that from the Madisound speaker site). If you don't have any text books on speaker building; the "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" by Vance Dickason is probably the best one to start with. I believe it is now in it's 7th edition.
I'm sure many others will begin to give suggestions here but I do recommend doing some "homework" to become more familiar with the terms, concepts and basic theories.
Best of luck and, as always, have fun doing it!
Hi
I have this book third edition in an approximativ translation and the site you're talking and that is indeed better and better with years.
Not always easy to understand as the serie passive correction filter that was a serie cap//resistor and its behavior for illustration (at the end AllenB helped me to understand more about it) talking about V Dickason book. At least your good explication & experience are going beyond the book imho in relation to my focused question. So thank you for that. 🙂
I have this book third edition in an approximativ translation and the site you're talking and that is indeed better and better with years.
Not always easy to understand as the serie passive correction filter that was a serie cap//resistor and its behavior for illustration (at the end AllenB helped me to understand more about it) talking about V Dickason book. At least your good explication & experience are going beyond the book imho in relation to my focused question. So thank you for that. 🙂
Do you have an exact driver(s) make/model(s) already in mind? I could help get you in the ball park of a specific driver if the OEM data sheets are available online. Like I said; other's here have much higher technology tools and software. Some driver OEM's have VERY detailed and sophisticated data sheets while others just give out the very bare minimum of information. Also, some OEM data is either outdated, superseded or inaccurate at best. 3rd party testing and documentation is very helpful and useful but obviously not every driver has been tested and evaluated by knowledgeable and trusted persons, labs, test houses, etc.
I have all the time in the world, be glad to help; even if to do in-depth research.
Cheers!
{PM me if you want to get really specific without clogging up this forum with every last little detail. Sometimes these threads can get out of hand and go off topic as more and more people become involved.}
Well, it's not my thread, I'm a lurker as I'm starving for information and it's one of my main hobby, the greatest being about music. So it comes off topic being not the thread starter though often anyone else's questions may help and contribute to the first post !
To keep it short I'm more on a 3 ways projects I wanted to be simple but things are never simple. Scan Speak 10F 842400 8 ohms neodynium I want to horn and had already many advices here, Joseph Crowe whio is designing horns, xrk971 who made a foam horn, some guys whom given methods to sketch a horn for 3D printing and even made a free soft for it.
If too much complex/expensive than horning -because I have to design the horn according some advices already given by valuable fellows here according my needs and trade offs- I still have to reduce the needs and make a classic 3 ways a little littlier than Troels Gravsen 3 ways classic. Then the price for the low end as it's not related to a huge room, I had a very good advice from System7 fellow which is good at the 3 ways english box sized speakers and drivers (as 2 ways btw) about a cheap but good enough 8" woofer.
So still on the road maps according the price/QP I 'm able to putt in it as a lockdown project (i.e. here in my European country). I'm not worry about the treble which is according to my my listener experience the most easy to acheive since the XXI century (and was not so bad before having still a latest XX° century main speaker 😀). Will be chose when the average spl will be decided (i.e. with horn or without - which gave 87 db/2.83V for 8 ohms not horned)
Many thanks for your help and I will remember it if I need good advices. Don't want to pollute right now in order not to highjack the thread, just permitt myself questions if I feel it can help not myself only but also add to the original poster.
I believe a good two ways budget should go into a 3 ways project if the room is more than 10 square meters but it's just from experience. Could stay good with a 2 ways if budget is limited, but it's just my simple experience. I'm always surprised when it comes to choose the woofer and it goes from 6" to 10" or 12" in the talking... But that's cool, it's an open world
.
To keep it short I'm more on a 3 ways projects I wanted to be simple but things are never simple. Scan Speak 10F 842400 8 ohms neodynium I want to horn and had already many advices here, Joseph Crowe whio is designing horns, xrk971 who made a foam horn, some guys whom given methods to sketch a horn for 3D printing and even made a free soft for it.
If too much complex/expensive than horning -because I have to design the horn according some advices already given by valuable fellows here according my needs and trade offs- I still have to reduce the needs and make a classic 3 ways a little littlier than Troels Gravsen 3 ways classic. Then the price for the low end as it's not related to a huge room, I had a very good advice from System7 fellow which is good at the 3 ways english box sized speakers and drivers (as 2 ways btw) about a cheap but good enough 8" woofer.
So still on the road maps according the price/QP I 'm able to putt in it as a lockdown project (i.e. here in my European country). I'm not worry about the treble which is according to my my listener experience the most easy to acheive since the XXI century (and was not so bad before having still a latest XX° century main speaker 😀). Will be chose when the average spl will be decided (i.e. with horn or without - which gave 87 db/2.83V for 8 ohms not horned)
Many thanks for your help and I will remember it if I need good advices. Don't want to pollute right now in order not to highjack the thread, just permitt myself questions if I feel it can help not myself only but also add to the original poster.
I believe a good two ways budget should go into a 3 ways project if the room is more than 10 square meters but it's just from experience. Could stay good with a 2 ways if budget is limited, but it's just my simple experience. I'm always surprised when it comes to choose the woofer and it goes from 6" to 10" or 12" in the talking... But that's cool, it's an open world
.
Last edited:
I built a pair with similar price goals awhile back. I used
Peerless SDS-160F25PR01-08
Peerless DX20BF00-04
And crossed around 2kHz or 2.2 kHz. It's a bit low for that tweet, but it works decent. I think I was at 2nd order XO.
Not the greatest sounding speakers I've ever heard, but pretty good for the extremely low price.
Edit: The woofer was a bit less expensive when I bought too. It was about the best value I could find at the time, but that was before SBAcoustics' new PFC models too. Those would be worth a look I think. Can't get much better price/performance ratio than that tweet though.
Peerless SDS-160F25PR01-08
Peerless DX20BF00-04
And crossed around 2kHz or 2.2 kHz. It's a bit low for that tweet, but it works decent. I think I was at 2nd order XO.
Not the greatest sounding speakers I've ever heard, but pretty good for the extremely low price.
Edit: The woofer was a bit less expensive when I bought too. It was about the best value I could find at the time, but that was before SBAcoustics' new PFC models too. Those would be worth a look I think. Can't get much better price/performance ratio than that tweet though.
Last edited:
btw forgott those Behringer for the original poster, low priced and also have a thread here from Maxheadroom member about cheap tweaking with better stuffing : on an original idea from Zaph (can be seen on ZAPHAUDIO blog)... Less than 200 bucks iirc.
Tested: Behringer B2031P drivers...
Tweeter, infinite baffle...
[image][/image][image] - Thiele / Small parameters I've been listening to this set and it's really an impressive speaker for the price. Both the cabinet and drivers are very well built and the design is good overall with few obvious flaws. After a good couple weeks of listening, I pulled the drivers to test. Individually the drivers tested well on my infinite baffle, with the only real hiccup being a slight dip in the woofer's response. I didn't find it too noticable in listening. The tweeter is tested without the waveguide. I'll have more tests on the assembled system, but rest assured anyone buying this system will get their money's worth. For the enclosure size, I expected a bit more low end extension but that's easily solved by most folks with a subwoofer. The tonality seems well balanced, and the 4 component crossover seems to do it's job acceptably
[image][/image][image] - Frequency response
[image][/image][image] - Harmonic distortion
[image][/image][image] - Impedance zoom
[image][/image][image] - Cumulative spectrum decay Woofer, infinite baffle...
[image][/image][image] - Frequency response
[image][/image][image] - Harmonic distortion
[image][/image][image] - Impedance zoom
[image][/image][image] - Le(x) plot - impedance at excursion
[image][/image][image] - Cumulative spectrum decay[/image][/image][/image][/image][/image][/image][/image][/image][/image][/image]
Tested: Behringer B2031P drivers...
Tweeter, infinite baffle...
[image][/image][image] - Thiele / Small parameters I've been listening to this set and it's really an impressive speaker for the price. Both the cabinet and drivers are very well built and the design is good overall with few obvious flaws. After a good couple weeks of listening, I pulled the drivers to test. Individually the drivers tested well on my infinite baffle, with the only real hiccup being a slight dip in the woofer's response. I didn't find it too noticable in listening. The tweeter is tested without the waveguide. I'll have more tests on the assembled system, but rest assured anyone buying this system will get their money's worth. For the enclosure size, I expected a bit more low end extension but that's easily solved by most folks with a subwoofer. The tonality seems well balanced, and the 4 component crossover seems to do it's job acceptably
[image][/image][image] - Frequency response
[image][/image][image] - Harmonic distortion
[image][/image][image] - Impedance zoom
[image][/image][image] - Cumulative spectrum decay Woofer, infinite baffle...
[image][/image][image] - Frequency response
[image][/image][image] - Harmonic distortion
[image][/image][image] - Impedance zoom
[image][/image][image] - Le(x) plot - impedance at excursion
[image][/image][image] - Cumulative spectrum decay[/image][/image][/image][/image][/image][/image][/image][/image][/image][/image]
I second the suggestion of Faital Pro drivers for a very good price/ quality ratio. They are an Italian company.
Monacor can be good too for cheapish drivers and tweeters.
Monacor can be good too for cheapish drivers and tweeters.
Like said it won't fit your budget probally.
But if budget (100$ per side) is really the limitation, an Peerless SDS-P830657 woofer and a Dayton Audio DC28FS-8 tweeter can be a good combo of reasonable quality, and leave some room for crossover parts. But it will be hard to meet the budget to finish this. I did build this for a budget setup a while ago and the total budget for the electronic parts (for a pair) was about 280€. I was using dayton air coils and cheaper Jantzen crosscaps and cement resistors for the cr. The cabinets were done by the actual owner from mdf and painted with a rattle can as he is handicapped (on a little wellfare fee) and had a very small budget for new speakers.
But if budget (100$ per side) is really the limitation, an Peerless SDS-P830657 woofer and a Dayton Audio DC28FS-8 tweeter can be a good combo of reasonable quality, and leave some room for crossover parts. But it will be hard to meet the budget to finish this. I did build this for a budget setup a while ago and the total budget for the electronic parts (for a pair) was about 280€. I was using dayton air coils and cheaper Jantzen crosscaps and cement resistors for the cr. The cabinets were done by the actual owner from mdf and painted with a rattle can as he is handicapped (on a little wellfare fee) and had a very small budget for new speakers.
150 per side, only one shipment fee, with active amp, manual corection, proof design... exist perhaps also in passive for less Behringer B2031A Truth – Thomann Italia
Dear experts,
thanks for all the knowledge sharing!
I've decided for the following combination
- Peerless XT25TG30-04
- SB SB20PFCR30-4
- Eminence APT150S wave guide
I'm not sure about the wave guide, I'll measure two solutions, one with and one without (I have the MiniDSP calibrated mic). Based on Unibox calculation, I can have a vented box with and F3 of 35Hz within the size of 30l
I know that I have to tame the midwoofer but I aim for a FR a little bit descending, like a house curve. I can add and L-Pad anyway if the base is too prominent
Thanks to all that recommended already build speakers, they are cheap and with good quality, but the fun and the challenge are in making a new one 🙂
What do you think?
Thanks!
Cheers
thanks for all the knowledge sharing!
I've decided for the following combination
- Peerless XT25TG30-04
- SB SB20PFCR30-4
- Eminence APT150S wave guide
I'm not sure about the wave guide, I'll measure two solutions, one with and one without (I have the MiniDSP calibrated mic). Based on Unibox calculation, I can have a vented box with and F3 of 35Hz within the size of 30l
I know that I have to tame the midwoofer but I aim for a FR a little bit descending, like a house curve. I can add and L-Pad anyway if the base is too prominent
Thanks to all that recommended already build speakers, they are cheap and with good quality, but the fun and the challenge are in making a new one 🙂
What do you think?
Thanks!
Cheers
The XT series is not a good choice for xovers below 2kHz when paired with an 8" woofer.
Later,
Wolf
Later,
Wolf
Dear Wolf,
thanks. In reality for the calculation I set up the XO point at 2500Hz and I got the below FR from Boxsim
This is simulated, need to be done again with the inbox real behavior. Not sure about that spike after 10k but I'll deal with it later
What do you think?
Many thanks
Cheers
thanks. In reality for the calculation I set up the XO point at 2500Hz and I got the below FR from Boxsim
This is simulated, need to be done again with the inbox real behavior. Not sure about that spike after 10k but I'll deal with it later
What do you think?
Many thanks
Cheers
Last edited:
You have a -7dB swing at xover summation, and the tweeter is not even -10dB down at 1kHz. This is prone to fry your tweeter if you proceed as you have it. This is not xover-aligned at 2.5kHz as thought.
That bump at 1.5kHz will be exaggerated due to the directivity mismatch of a 1" dome and 8" woofer. While the tweeter response is decreasing to reduce this effect, it rolls off too quick initially, and then not fast enough below xover.
Later,
Wolf
That bump at 1.5kHz will be exaggerated due to the directivity mismatch of a 1" dome and 8" woofer. While the tweeter response is decreasing to reduce this effect, it rolls off too quick initially, and then not fast enough below xover.
Later,
Wolf
why don't you start with a speaker that has been built before? my experience is that if you design something on your own (first build), you end up spending more money. With the first speaker i designed myself i ended up with extra tweeters and crossover parts!
My recommendations for "cheap" woofers are (keep in mind that i also started with building recently);
Dayton audio TCP115 + Peerless DX20BF00-4
There is a guy on youtube (kirby meets audo), who explains the whole selecting/building process on youtube. Only he uses a different tweeter.
Dayton audio DC130S + Dayton audio TD20-F
Also, read a lot articles and books. This can prevent you from making dumb mistakes (again, i am a beginner aswell).
(EDIT)
i always ended up buying extra parts for adjusting the crossovers, maybe this is normal😛
My recommendations for "cheap" woofers are (keep in mind that i also started with building recently);
Dayton audio TCP115 + Peerless DX20BF00-4
There is a guy on youtube (kirby meets audo), who explains the whole selecting/building process on youtube. Only he uses a different tweeter.
Dayton audio DC130S + Dayton audio TD20-F
Also, read a lot articles and books. This can prevent you from making dumb mistakes (again, i am a beginner aswell).
(EDIT)
i always ended up buying extra parts for adjusting the crossovers, maybe this is normal😛
Last edited:
dear Djeepert, Wolf, thanks!
I've changed the XO and this is the new result
what do you think? I know that there is that valley at 10k but I'll fix later when I'll measure it in box with the calibrated mic
I think that mistakes and troubles are part of learning, nobody born as an expert 🙂 and this is why I like this forum!
thanks!
cheers
I've changed the XO and this is the new result
what do you think? I know that there is that valley at 10k but I'll fix later when I'll measure it in box with the calibrated mic
for sure I will too. I built a 3 way active and it was way easier once an expert recommended me the drivers. How I ended up to configure the DSP was way different from the simulation... I want to do passive for get some new challenge this time, on a simple 2 way
I think that mistakes and troubles are part of learning, nobody born as an expert 🙂 and this is why I like this forum!
thanks!
cheers
In a 8"-1" combo a waveguide is a good idea. It raises the on-axis level and thus allows for lower crossing and/or more attenuation. Keeps HF units alive. Plus, most likely the 8" has high directivity around the X-over. The waveguide will match this so your power output vs. frequency will be better.