Dear Experts,
I need your kind support for select two drivers for a budget ported bookshelf project. I've tried to investigate by myself but I can't understand what cheap drivers deliver good performance. I was thinking of a 6~8" woofer and a tweeter
These are my requirements
- Amp: 50W RMS per channel
- 100 USD budget drivers+CO
- no done kits because it's not fun
and I don't live in USA, so will be too expensive to ship
- high SPL
- decent sound quality
Based on my knowledge, the benchmark for such type of speakers are the Dayton MK402
Thanks to all!
Cheers
I need your kind support for select two drivers for a budget ported bookshelf project. I've tried to investigate by myself but I can't understand what cheap drivers deliver good performance. I was thinking of a 6~8" woofer and a tweeter
These are my requirements
- Amp: 50W RMS per channel
- 100 USD budget drivers+CO
- no done kits because it's not fun
and I don't live in USA, so will be too expensive to ship- high SPL
- decent sound quality
Based on my knowledge, the benchmark for such type of speakers are the Dayton MK402
Thanks to all!
Cheers
If you don't know how to select good drivers then you certainly don't know how to design a crossover.
Even if you don't buy a kit you need to follow a design of someone else's to give you what you want.
That's not a big budget. You'll struggle on $100, in Europe especially, to find anything suitable. Or if something does exist you won't have much choice.
You're going to need a design with like SB Acoustics PFC range or Dayton Audios Designer series. We don't tend to get much bargain basement stuff, such as special offers, like parts express have in the USA.
There are some inexpensive peerless/tymphany drivers too.
The tweeters are less of a problem but you want it to go loud and typically the main limitation of cheap tweeters is they won't crossover low if you want them to play loud. 6/8" designs need a low crossover point so...
If you want loud then the cheapest way to achieve that would be with an MTM/TMM based on something like a SDS-P830657.
Hopefully someone else will chime in with another recommendation.
Even if you don't buy a kit you need to follow a design of someone else's to give you what you want.
That's not a big budget. You'll struggle on $100, in Europe especially, to find anything suitable. Or if something does exist you won't have much choice.
You're going to need a design with like SB Acoustics PFC range or Dayton Audios Designer series. We don't tend to get much bargain basement stuff, such as special offers, like parts express have in the USA.
There are some inexpensive peerless/tymphany drivers too.
The tweeters are less of a problem but you want it to go loud and typically the main limitation of cheap tweeters is they won't crossover low if you want them to play loud. 6/8" designs need a low crossover point so...
If you want loud then the cheapest way to achieve that would be with an MTM/TMM based on something like a SDS-P830657.
Hopefully someone else will chime in with another recommendation.
Agree with Mr 5th element regarding the crossover. Best to have a good read of the stickies before doing anything (Here & here)
Not exactly budget but the Seas CA22RNX has a smooth frequency response for an 8" woofer, and will go very loud in a 34ltr box tuned to 23hz (1.59" x 7" port). The very low tuning will allow the driver to be played loud and with a reasonably linear low frequency response. You can also plug the port and use it sealed.
A well regarded, robust but also good value tweeter is the SB Acoustics SB26STAC-C000-4 Or there's the Monacor DT-300 with the WG-300 waveguide.
Not exactly budget but the Seas CA22RNX has a smooth frequency response for an 8" woofer, and will go very loud in a 34ltr box tuned to 23hz (1.59" x 7" port). The very low tuning will allow the driver to be played loud and with a reasonably linear low frequency response. You can also plug the port and use it sealed.
A well regarded, robust but also good value tweeter is the SB Acoustics SB26STAC-C000-4 Or there's the Monacor DT-300 with the WG-300 waveguide.
The Dayton MK402 is pretty terrible, here is a review of a similar speaker:
Dayton Audio B652-AIR Speaker Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Main issues are:
1) drivers too far apart at the crossover frequency resulting in poor off axis vertical response. This can be mitigated by selecting a tweeter that goes lower in frequency and using a more complicated higher order crossover.
2) the tweeter is a bit garbage anyway with weird dispersion even when only its playing.
3) loads of resonances and irregular response from the crap box construction and the woofer used too high in frequency.
You could try using a wideband ~2" driver with a woofer in order to get a low crossover. This one seems good:
Test Bench - SB Acoustics SB65WBAC25-4 2.5” full-range driver | audioXpress
crossover could be ~500Hz to a low cost 10" driver (not exactly sure whats available in Italy).
Dayton Audio B652-AIR Speaker Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Main issues are:
1) drivers too far apart at the crossover frequency resulting in poor off axis vertical response. This can be mitigated by selecting a tweeter that goes lower in frequency and using a more complicated higher order crossover.
2) the tweeter is a bit garbage anyway with weird dispersion even when only its playing.
3) loads of resonances and irregular response from the crap box construction and the woofer used too high in frequency.
You could try using a wideband ~2" driver with a woofer in order to get a low crossover. This one seems good:
Test Bench - SB Acoustics SB65WBAC25-4 2.5” full-range driver | audioXpress
crossover could be ~500Hz to a low cost 10" driver (not exactly sure whats available in Italy).
Dear all,
thanks so much for your answers, very helpful!!
@5th element, I need some expert opinion in the selection, I can read the free air FR of a driver but I'm not good enough to understand why a 10 USD has got the same curve as a 250 USD driver... it is where I want to learn more
@fatmarley, thanks for the suggestion, it gives me some ideas
@kipman725, unbelievable! some of the website that I follow, A****lics.com, said that the MK402 are very good for their price, and they are at audiophile level, for what is worth that definition... interesting that everybody said that they do scientific approach and get so different results (I'm a mechanical engineer so when it works it does, otherwise it doesn't, every time you try with the same condition)
so what do you think about this combination
SB Acoustics sb20pfc30
SB Acoustics sb19st
CO at around 1k as initial condition, then of course needs to be simulated to find the optimal value
thanks again for all the inputs
cheers
thanks so much for your answers, very helpful!!
@5th element, I need some expert opinion in the selection, I can read the free air FR of a driver but I'm not good enough to understand why a 10 USD has got the same curve as a 250 USD driver... it is where I want to learn more
@fatmarley, thanks for the suggestion, it gives me some ideas
@kipman725, unbelievable! some of the website that I follow, A****lics.com, said that the MK402 are very good for their price, and they are at audiophile level, for what is worth that definition... interesting that everybody said that they do scientific approach and get so different results (I'm a mechanical engineer so when it works it does, otherwise it doesn't, every time you try with the same condition)
so what do you think about this combination
SB Acoustics sb20pfc30
SB Acoustics sb19st
CO at around 1k as initial condition, then of course needs to be simulated to find the optimal value
thanks again for all the inputs
cheers
Here is a review of the MK402:
Dayton MK402 Bookshelf Speaker Review
pretty far from audiophile, opinions are cheap without data to back them up.
You won't be able to crossover the sb19st at 1kHz as the distortion will be very high probably >2kHz is the minimum, have a look at the measurements here:
Zaph|Audio
tweeters with Fs ~ 1kHz have large increases in harmonic distortion below 2kHz. 1Khz is probably impossible from a standard dome tweeter as they have such limited excursion capability and surface area, hence why I suggested a wideband driver.
Dayton MK402 Bookshelf Speaker Review
pretty far from audiophile, opinions are cheap without data to back them up.
You won't be able to crossover the sb19st at 1kHz as the distortion will be very high probably >2kHz is the minimum, have a look at the measurements here:
Zaph|Audio
tweeters with Fs ~ 1kHz have large increases in harmonic distortion below 2kHz. 1Khz is probably impossible from a standard dome tweeter as they have such limited excursion capability and surface area, hence why I suggested a wideband driver.
A quick rule of thumb for tweeters is to crossover at 2 or 3 times the drivers resonant frequency. So with a 1Khz resonant frequency 2-3KHz. Sb Acoustics spec sheet tells us that they measure the power capability of the tweeter at 30W with a 2600Khz 2nd order butterworth filter. I am sure it is a decent tweeter crossed over at 2500 - 3000KHz.
The 8 inch bass is another good choice but ideally you should be looking at 1.8 -2KHz as its crossover frequency. With a bit of inventiveness with the melding of the two you should be able to get something that sounds good. In the seventies and eighties there were several designs where people crossed 8 inch driver at upto 3-4Khz. But it is unusual today.
As you are an engineer you will understand trade offs. As a safety precaution maybe look to the next size of SB Acoustics tweeter the Sb26 or sb29 to give you a better handover it will also handle some more power. I am sure the 19mm is a good tweeter but using it at the bottom end of its range below 2.5Khz could take some serious crossover work.
The 8 inch bass is another good choice but ideally you should be looking at 1.8 -2KHz as its crossover frequency. With a bit of inventiveness with the melding of the two you should be able to get something that sounds good. In the seventies and eighties there were several designs where people crossed 8 inch driver at upto 3-4Khz. But it is unusual today.
As you are an engineer you will understand trade offs. As a safety precaution maybe look to the next size of SB Acoustics tweeter the Sb26 or sb29 to give you a better handover it will also handle some more power. I am sure the 19mm is a good tweeter but using it at the bottom end of its range below 2.5Khz could take some serious crossover work.
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Your requirements aren't realistic. If you want to build a 2-way with a 6" or worse a 8" woofer, you need a tweeter able to be crossed to between 1.5 and 2.0 KHz. No 3/4" tweeter is able to sustain such a low crossover point, and no standard dome tweeter is able to sustain a 1KHz crossover point.
In general I don't think you can find a cheap tweeter that can be mated successfully to a 6-8" woofer.
Besides that, 100 $ budget (less than 100 € BTW), for all drivers and crossover components is definitely too low. I'm not sure it is sufficient for even a cheap 5"+1" combo like my first build (Peerless 830656 + Vifa BC25TG15).
Ralf
This could be of interest and maybe doesn't need a tweeter at all, and falls into kipmans advice about a wideband driver. Your sb19 would do easily here.
just posted
Nice sounding 3-way from cheap drivers
just posted
Nice sounding 3-way from cheap drivers
The only 'cheap' 8" simple 2-way I'm actually aware of that does a lot right in balancing the tradeoffs is my Zingers build. The drivers themselves are just over the mark at $112, and the xover consists of 6 parts per cabinet.
I don't think you're going to get closer to your budget for an 8" build.
Later,
Wolf
I don't think you're going to get closer to your budget for an 8" build.
Later,
Wolf
Attachments
thanks, very interesting reading. I love DSP, I have one for my other project and you can do anything, very useful and effective
thanks to all for the answers! really appreciated
Since, as expected, the budget always becomes double, what about a combination of full range and 6" woofer? something like
sb65wbac25 or SB10pgc21 as tweeter
sb15mfc30 or Peerless 830657 SDS or sb20pfcr30 or wavecor wf168wa05 (Peerless is very budget friendly)
Sorry can't find FaitalPro for comparison...
thanks!!
cheers
try Google translate
check under "speakers"
Speakers - Der-Akustische-Untergrund
right side has list of speakers
MI 6 – Desktoplautsprecher mit Filtern 1. Ordnung – Donhighend Audio
You're in Europe- these are from Europe.
check under "speakers"
Speakers - Der-Akustische-Untergrund
right side has list of speakers
MI 6 – Desktoplautsprecher mit Filtern 1. Ordnung – Donhighend Audio
You're in Europe- these are from Europe.
Dear Experts,
I need your kind support for select two drivers for a budget ported bookshelf project. I've tried to investigate by myself but I can't understand what cheap drivers deliver good performance. I was thinking of a 6~8" woofer and a tweeter
These are my requirements
- Amp: 50W RMS per channel
- 100 USD budget drivers+CO
- no done kits because it's not fun
- high SPL
- decent sound quality
Based on my knowledge, the benchmark for such type of speakers are the Dayton MK402
Thanks to all!
Cheers
thanks, very interesting reading. I love DSP, I have one for my other project and you can do anything, very useful and effective
thanks to all for the answers! really appreciated
Since, as expected, the budget always becomes double, what about a combination of full range and 6" woofer? something like
sb65wbac25 or SB10pgc21 as tweeter
sb15mfc30 or Peerless 830657 SDS or sb20pfcr30 or wavecor wf168wa05 (Peerless is very budget friendly)
Sorry can't find FaitalPro for comparison...
thanks!!
cheers
This is not a bookshelf but a fullrange and a Peerless 6.5"
The Mongrel - CSS FR125S and Peerless 830875 Loudspeaker by RZaudio
You're mixing very different sized drivers here... My opinion follows.
Wavecor: I don't like the wrinkles in the impedance and requires a low crossover point (max 2KHz)
SB 15: it's a 5" driver, I supposed you wanted 6-8" drivers
SB 20: interesting driver but IMHO should be used strictly as a woofer in a 3-way (*)
Peerless: have a look at the Tarkus crossover (requires slightly redesign as it is used there as a mid), or at the Start Air Kit 1R or 2S (**) (slightly higher crossover point than ideal)
Ralf
(*) If used with an appropriate fullrange (for a FAST or WAF kind of design), then it is OK
(**) the tweeter used is the Vifa BC25TG15
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