I have only read through this thread a little.
I have worked wit TAD drivers, and am somewhat disturbed that someone would put an aftermarket aluminum Diaphragm in it.
Even more disturbing is people think it sounds better.
Pretty much all 4" (2"throat) aluminum Diaphragms are not useful much above 7khz. The aluminum is too damped, and due to the inconsistency of the diaphragm material, caused by the oven stamping process, and crystaline memory. Aluminum Diaphragm suffer huge amounts of Radial and concentric breakup modes, when operated in the upper octaves.
This breakup often generates noise that has relationship to the input signal.
Titanium is even worse because it is less damped than aluminum.
The proprietary sputtered molten BE deposition process that TAD uses to make their BE diaphragms really makes them second to none. They are much more consistent in thickness, much more ridged, and less prone to breakup modes than standard compression driver diaphragms.
The process they use also allows the diaphragm and the surround to be one piece.
The downside of BE is that its a little more fragile than the other options, so can handle less power. Also the element is toxic.
I really think owning a TAD product and putting an inferior Diaphragm in it really defeats the purpose, and is a crying shame. There maybe people who will buy those motors from you to prevent such a tragedy.
If you want added distortion, from inferior diaphragms buy some old blown JBL 2" throats, and repair those.
Oh PS I think the TAD is a 1.5" throat you need an adapter to go to 2"
I have worked wit TAD drivers, and am somewhat disturbed that someone would put an aftermarket aluminum Diaphragm in it.
Even more disturbing is people think it sounds better.
Pretty much all 4" (2"throat) aluminum Diaphragms are not useful much above 7khz. The aluminum is too damped, and due to the inconsistency of the diaphragm material, caused by the oven stamping process, and crystaline memory. Aluminum Diaphragm suffer huge amounts of Radial and concentric breakup modes, when operated in the upper octaves.
This breakup often generates noise that has relationship to the input signal.
Titanium is even worse because it is less damped than aluminum.
The proprietary sputtered molten BE deposition process that TAD uses to make their BE diaphragms really makes them second to none. They are much more consistent in thickness, much more ridged, and less prone to breakup modes than standard compression driver diaphragms.
The process they use also allows the diaphragm and the surround to be one piece.
The downside of BE is that its a little more fragile than the other options, so can handle less power. Also the element is toxic.
I really think owning a TAD product and putting an inferior Diaphragm in it really defeats the purpose, and is a crying shame. There maybe people who will buy those motors from you to prevent such a tragedy.
If you want added distortion, from inferior diaphragms buy some old blown JBL 2" throats, and repair those.
Oh PS I think the TAD is a 1.5" throat you need an adapter to go to 2"
Hi,
right mow i am using the bigger 2" Radian PB950 "motor" together with a 2" Stereolab horn. Amazing! Very good!
Very linear up to 17KHz. Try a notch filter 1,5mH and 6,8uF to get rid of the mid-peak and 2,2uF across the serial resistor in the L-pad.
My filter is a 6-dB filter 22uF for the Radian this means a crossover point ~500Hz with the Radian horns.
Very good and a big bang for the money!
Regards
Hauke
right mow i am using the bigger 2" Radian PB950 "motor" together with a 2" Stereolab horn. Amazing! Very good!
Very linear up to 17KHz. Try a notch filter 1,5mH and 6,8uF to get rid of the mid-peak and 2,2uF across the serial resistor in the L-pad.
My filter is a 6-dB filter 22uF for the Radian this means a crossover point ~500Hz with the Radian horns.
Very good and a big bang for the money!
Regards
Hauke
Been reading a bit about the 18sound
The coating mentioned earlier is called TPM(true piston motion) and is only present in NSD1095N/NSD1480N
Its not a coating as we normally understand it, but a nitride coating making the titan diaphragm stiffer ... in other words a ceramic layer
Radian, are you saying that you "diy-mount" NSD diaphragms on the ND1460 driver?
The coating mentioned earlier is called TPM(true piston motion) and is only present in NSD1095N/NSD1480N
Its not a coating as we normally understand it, but a nitride coating making the titan diaphragm stiffer ... in other words a ceramic layer
Radian, are you saying that you "diy-mount" NSD diaphragms on the ND1460 driver?
Hi,
I am intersted with the Radian 950PB. I bought two weeks ago a Stereolab 400Hz tractrix horn which I will receive soon and try it with my BMS4591. Hauke you seem to be happy with the 950PB, did you compare it with Beyma (850) or 18sound (ND2080 or ND2060A) drivers wich are in the same price range?
Regards
Oli
I am intersted with the Radian 950PB. I bought two weeks ago a Stereolab 400Hz tractrix horn which I will receive soon and try it with my BMS4591. Hauke you seem to be happy with the 950PB, did you compare it with Beyma (850) or 18sound (ND2080 or ND2060A) drivers wich are in the same price range?
Regards
Oli
oliAudio said:
Hi Oli,
i do not have experiences with Beyma and 18sound; but i compared my Radian's 950PB with Altec 288-8K. The Radian's are much better. I know a lot of people who sold their TAD4001 and "downgrad" to Radian.
IMHO the Radian is the best sounding 2" driver. A lot of French guys uses the Radian..(Brian, Marco Henry, etc..)
Kind Regards
Hauke
I stumbled over Dirk Hahn's posts on "pa-forum.de" when I searched for a
current production alternative for my Yamaha JA6681b.
I can't search for all his posts about the subject right now.
Those who speak German can search for the word "NSD" on the forum.
Dirk Hahn is the main German importer for 18Sound. This would usually
disqualify him from being objective about compression drivers,
but he is well respected in his field, and none of the pros refute him
on the matter .
He is famous for his speakers with highest quality
chassis for both, PA and HiFi and his creations are found in German
DIY speaker magazines.
Here is one post of him:
"Hi Peerless
ein NSD ist akustisch nahezu perfekt. Der NSD 1460 ist etwas
zurückhaltend ganz oben, jedoch darf ihm dieser Bereich durch
High-Shelving (16 Khz + 5dB) ohne Verlust akustischer Präzision
hinzugefügt werden. Der NSD 1480 verhält sich da besser, da er
mehr Magnetmasse hat und besser im Topend ist. Jedoch ist der
NSD 1460 N momentan der beste und darüber hinaus fast der
billigste Treiber im Neodym Segment. Er ist auch kompatibel mit den
Konstruktionen, die bisher mit dem ND 1460/1480 gebaut wurden.
....Deinen eigenen Test anzustreben mit allen anderen
Membranmaterialien wird sich so ergeben, wie von mir bereits oben
beschrieben. Oder denkst du, dass alle hier mitlesende Pro´s,
meine Kommentare ohne Veto akzeptiert hätten. Ich glaube und
bin mir sehr sicher, dass ich den Treibermarkt sehr gut kenne und
nur ein Treiber gefährlich nahe in unsere Gegend kommt. Alles
andere ist noch ziemlich weit entfernt.
Mfg
Dirk"
And my humble translation:
Hi Peerless
a NSD is acoustically almost perfect. The NSD 1460 is a little
restrained in the top end, but High-shelving (16 Khz + 5dB)
can be applied in this area without loss of acoustic precision.
The NSD 1480 behaves better in the top-end, because it has
more magnetic mass. However, the
NSD 1460 N is currently the best and cheapest neodymium driver in the segment.
It is also compatible with Constructions, that were built with the1460/1480 ND.
making your own test against all other membrane materials will
reveal the results as I have already described above. Or do you
think that everyone of the Pro's here, would accept my comments
without a veto. I am very sure that I know the driver market very
well and only one driver comes pretty close to ours. Everything else
is still quite far away.
Mfg.
Dirk
Greets,
Klaus
current production alternative for my Yamaha JA6681b.
I can't search for all his posts about the subject right now.
Those who speak German can search for the word "NSD" on the forum.
Dirk Hahn is the main German importer for 18Sound. This would usually
disqualify him from being objective about compression drivers,
but he is well respected in his field, and none of the pros refute him
on the matter .
He is famous for his speakers with highest quality
chassis for both, PA and HiFi and his creations are found in German
DIY speaker magazines.
Here is one post of him:
"Hi Peerless
ein NSD ist akustisch nahezu perfekt. Der NSD 1460 ist etwas
zurückhaltend ganz oben, jedoch darf ihm dieser Bereich durch
High-Shelving (16 Khz + 5dB) ohne Verlust akustischer Präzision
hinzugefügt werden. Der NSD 1480 verhält sich da besser, da er
mehr Magnetmasse hat und besser im Topend ist. Jedoch ist der
NSD 1460 N momentan der beste und darüber hinaus fast der
billigste Treiber im Neodym Segment. Er ist auch kompatibel mit den
Konstruktionen, die bisher mit dem ND 1460/1480 gebaut wurden.
....Deinen eigenen Test anzustreben mit allen anderen
Membranmaterialien wird sich so ergeben, wie von mir bereits oben
beschrieben. Oder denkst du, dass alle hier mitlesende Pro´s,
meine Kommentare ohne Veto akzeptiert hätten. Ich glaube und
bin mir sehr sicher, dass ich den Treibermarkt sehr gut kenne und
nur ein Treiber gefährlich nahe in unsere Gegend kommt. Alles
andere ist noch ziemlich weit entfernt.
Mfg
Dirk"
And my humble translation:
Hi Peerless
a NSD is acoustically almost perfect. The NSD 1460 is a little
restrained in the top end, but High-shelving (16 Khz + 5dB)
can be applied in this area without loss of acoustic precision.
The NSD 1480 behaves better in the top-end, because it has
more magnetic mass. However, the
NSD 1460 N is currently the best and cheapest neodymium driver in the segment.
It is also compatible with Constructions, that were built with the1460/1480 ND.
making your own test against all other membrane materials will
reveal the results as I have already described above. Or do you
think that everyone of the Pro's here, would accept my comments
without a veto. I am very sure that I know the driver market very
well and only one driver comes pretty close to ours. Everything else
is still quite far away.
Mfg.
Dirk
Greets,
Klaus
Regarding Radian drivers, here are two quotes of myself
form AA to someone that criticized the Radians:
"......I have seen quite a few comments from you about the Radian
compression drivers the past few years.
I can not agree with those at all (except for the reliability issues
that I can not comment on because I use them only domestically).
I have no business with Radian but I think it is not fair that people
refrain from buying those very affordable drivers because of some
negative comments that are made.
I have the Yamaha JA6681 on a tractrix horn. This driver according
to some people I contacted before the purchase, is better sounding
than the TAD 4001.
My Radian 85oPB's comes very close to my Yamahas, if the
back-chamber is made bigger for better lows (only recommended
for home use).
I don't know how you used the Radians but if you had much better
results with an Altec 288 then there was definitely something
wrong."
Here is one more quote from the "Beyond the Ariel" thread, by Linn:
"Hi Paul, just talked to Mike at Radian on the phone yesterday.
Without breaking any NDA's (they sell drivers to several
$80,000/pr high-end vendors), the 850-PB 2" is favored for its
relaxed, open midrange and performance almost up the top of the
range (it is frequently used with supertweeters in ultra-fi
applications). When ultimate HF extension is more important, the
smaller 1.4" 835-PB is favored for slightly sweeter HF at the
expense of a bit less midrange power-handling."
If I was in search for a 2" driver I would try a Radian 850PB as
these can be found in used conditiion for just $200.
You can't go wrong with that.
Greets,
Klaus
form AA to someone that criticized the Radians:
"......I have seen quite a few comments from you about the Radian
compression drivers the past few years.
I can not agree with those at all (except for the reliability issues
that I can not comment on because I use them only domestically).
I have no business with Radian but I think it is not fair that people
refrain from buying those very affordable drivers because of some
negative comments that are made.
I have the Yamaha JA6681 on a tractrix horn. This driver according
to some people I contacted before the purchase, is better sounding
than the TAD 4001.
My Radian 85oPB's comes very close to my Yamahas, if the
back-chamber is made bigger for better lows (only recommended
for home use).
I don't know how you used the Radians but if you had much better
results with an Altec 288 then there was definitely something
wrong."
Here is one more quote from the "Beyond the Ariel" thread, by Linn:
"Hi Paul, just talked to Mike at Radian on the phone yesterday.
Without breaking any NDA's (they sell drivers to several
$80,000/pr high-end vendors), the 850-PB 2" is favored for its
relaxed, open midrange and performance almost up the top of the
range (it is frequently used with supertweeters in ultra-fi
applications). When ultimate HF extension is more important, the
smaller 1.4" 835-PB is favored for slightly sweeter HF at the
expense of a bit less midrange power-handling."
If I was in search for a 2" driver I would try a Radian 850PB as
these can be found in used conditiion for just $200.
You can't go wrong with that.
Greets,
Klaus
Hi,
here is a photo taken at the European Triode Festival 2007:
Marco Henry uses 950PB; and here is a photo from my actual setup taken at the Frickelfest 2008:
KR
Hauke
here is a photo taken at the European Triode Festival 2007:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Marco Henry uses 950PB; and here is a photo from my actual setup taken at the Frickelfest 2008:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
KR
Hauke
barossi said:
I know, but even Mike at Radian suggests the 850PB over the 950PB
for pure midrange bliss and cleaner top end. If one wants to go lower
then 500hz the 950 is of course the better alternative. But why
spend all that cash for a 950 if the crossover point is not lower than
500 - 600hz?
Greets,
Klaus
i have had Altec 802d with 811b, and wood radial horn, Altec 288-16G on 1003b ( multi cell horn ), BMS 4592ND with ABS tractrix horns in the past, and have Radian 950pb, used on a variety of tractrix horns, and Vitavox S2 now.
here some pictures. pictures
when i bought the Radian, Mike recommended me the 950pb over the 850pb. I also think, the Radian sounds superior to the 288-16G.
The Altec sounds more " grey ", less lively.
The BMS sounds " thin " in the whole frequency range.
I have crossed the Radian always at 300hz. At this crossover point, it needs at least a 23" horn. With a 27" horn, it is really a LOT of fun to listen at.
I have compared the Radian direct on a 23" horn with the Vitavox.
The throat transition with the Vitavox was not even smooth, since i just put the driver with 1,4"exit to the 2" throat of the horn. So, less than ideal.
The difference is smaller, then i expected, but is there. The Vitavox sound's smoother, more natural, and has a " sparkle" , a livelyness, which no other compression driver has, i had so far. The color discrimination of the instruments is the best of all.
I could however live with the Radian on the 27" horn. That's big fun.
Angelo
angeloitacare said:
Angelo,
Mike has always given the edge in sonics to the 850PB in the mid
and upper range. He recommended the 850PB to Linn and also to
me when I called him about three years ago.
I don't know why he recommended the 950PB to you, maybe
because you wanted to cross it over lower than 500hz. Or maybe
they want to sell more of the expensive 950PB.
I am still waiting on a 850 Neo version, which would probably be
a killer driver.
I have yet to hear a 4" diaphragm driver that has the magic of the
Yamaha JA-6681b. This must be the best ceramic magnet driver
ever build. The expensive TAD TD4001 can not compete with
the smoothness and the naturalness of this driver. I have spoken to
three people that compared them and they all like the
Yamaha better.
Here is a frequency sweep on the Azura 160hz horn.
Look at the amazing low end response from that tiny diaphragm:
Attachments
I use to work with a system that has a pair of TAD TD-4001 mounted on JBL2395 horns/lenses and they are not that good. I don't know if the problem comes from the horns or from the drivers, but when playing music there are some frequency bands clearly missing above 6Khz and there is no way to recover them with equalization. This suggests comb filtering and/or breakup modes. I think that TD4001 are strongly overpriced and the technology is outdated.
The other reference that I have are the much newer BMS 4552 Nd (ring radiators) mounted on 18sound XT-1086 horns. They are more efficient than the TAD TD-4001 and don't seem to have anything missing in the top end after equalization.
After trying these ring radiators, I'm starting to think that there is something inherently wrong (comb filtering) with domes in the top octave, even when sophisticated time-coherent phase plugs with plenty of slits are employed. The whole dome-plug system is probably not that coherent.
I also worked with the old ElectroVoice DH1A on unknown conical horns, and there seemed to be far less stuff missing above 6Khz after equalization. Interestingly, the phase plug in these drivers uses conic holes in a semi-random pattern rather than slits.
The other reference that I have are the much newer BMS 4552 Nd (ring radiators) mounted on 18sound XT-1086 horns. They are more efficient than the TAD TD-4001 and don't seem to have anything missing in the top end after equalization.
After trying these ring radiators, I'm starting to think that there is something inherently wrong (comb filtering) with domes in the top octave, even when sophisticated time-coherent phase plugs with plenty of slits are employed. The whole dome-plug system is probably not that coherent.
I also worked with the old ElectroVoice DH1A on unknown conical horns, and there seemed to be far less stuff missing above 6Khz after equalization. Interestingly, the phase plug in these drivers uses conic holes in a semi-random pattern rather than slits.
Eva said:
You can't fool physics. The TAD has a 4" diaphragm and for that
reason is not able to reproduce the heights of a well designed
driver with a small lightweight diaphragm.
Because integrating a tweeter is no trivial task in most cases
people like the full range of a well designed driver better than with
a tweet.
If a good tweeter like Fostex T925 or Fane ST5020 is well implemented there is no way a one driver approach can be better.
Many might argue this point but the little better coherency if at all, can not make up for the extra detail, air, and depth you get from a
tweeter. The people that argue adding a tweeter is not as good are mostly not aware that the fault lies often with bad alignment;
wrong crossover; or a mismatch of material.
Try to listen to a Titan without the Fane Tweeter you will miss more
than you gain.
I even use the Fane as a slot tweeter which just sounds better off axis.
Greets,
Klaus
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