I will try series xo in a few days. Just switched back to miniDSP and enjoying them now. The time aligned linear phase makes a difference. When I listen to many tracks I have heard before the guitar and drums "Pop" distinctly now. The articulation all over is better - may have to do with low CSD of the 10F. Very detailed sounding with no hint of ringing in the response.
I applied very minor EQ'ing to smooth small bumps in the response (<-2dB cut in maybe 3 spots). Here is final response showing acoustic XO:
Here is the frequency response and absolute phase (4ms gate) varies +/-15 deg from 200Hz to 10kHz:
Here is the step response and impulse response:
Here is the group delay, no more than 9 ms above 35Hz and about 2.5ms at 100Hz:
Overall, a very good performing speaker on paper and in real life listening.
I applied very minor EQ'ing to smooth small bumps in the response (<-2dB cut in maybe 3 spots). Here is final response showing acoustic XO:
Here is the frequency response and absolute phase (4ms gate) varies +/-15 deg from 200Hz to 10kHz:
Here is the step response and impulse response:
Here is the group delay, no more than 9 ms above 35Hz and about 2.5ms at 100Hz:
Overall, a very good performing speaker on paper and in real life listening.
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Thanks! This was actually a fairly slow build for me - many days for glue to dry, but I spent maybe close to a month designing it with the help of Byrtt who helped me settle on the volume and the sealed alignment with Linkwitz transform as the best way to get clean low group delay and fairly good bass extension. Lot's of Akabak models to settle on the approximate XO range and the selection of the bass driver. The RS225-8 is really quite a special driver, at any price. The ScanSpeak 10F/8424, on the surface looks like an overpriced Vifa TC9FD, which I really like. But it really shines in the transient articulation and ability to resolve percussive details very well, combined with a butter-smooth mid range that excels at vocals. It's been a fun speaker to design, build, test, and now really enjoying just listening to my music with them. The neutrality allows any music to be played and sound good. If you coupled this with a sub for below 40Hz it would sound even more impactful.
Let's look at the cost of what I think is a fairly high performing monitor, all around good speaker for smaller rooms and near field critical listening.
1. SS 10F/8424 $100 ea x 2 = $200
2. Dayton RS225-8 $57 x 2 = $114
3. 1in thick XPS foam and Sureply baffle = $35
4. Liquid Nails x 3 tubes = $8
5. Terminal cups $1 x 4 =$4
I already had the miniDSP and amps, mis hardware etc. so drivers and XPS foam & glue is about $360.
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For everybody without eq, its even cheaper wih passive xo. Wind a coil and buy a suitable motorrun cap.
My passive xo using motor run cap and misc bits and pieces runs about $30 total for both speakers. You can't do Linkwitz transform so vented bass reflex needed and that increases group delay a bit.
Hey
42 is also the answer to life, the univers and everything
Great build btw, love reading how your aspirations evolve and that you share that with everyone, kudos!
42 is also the answer to life, the univers and everything
Great build btw, love reading how your aspirations evolve and that you share that with everyone, kudos!
Sayrum,
Thanks for the kind words. You were the one who turned me onto the TC9FD with my first diy project. Regarding evolution - I have gone from using $12 drivers to $100 drivers 😀 Well, the TC9FD is still my go-to driver for many projects. 🙂
Just found this 2012 Klang und Ton test, as linked on Scan Speak's own page for the 10F/8424G00: http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/reviews/10f8424g00-KlangTon2012-2.pdf
This is the off axis data I was hoping to see! Very nice! No doubt your enjoying this FAST build!
This is the off axis data I was hoping to see! Very nice! No doubt your enjoying this FAST build!
Thanks for the link! Is that the same driver? It says 10WB 824G00. The TS parameters are about right though. If it is the same driver, the off axis data is quite good.
It is linked as such by Scan Speak themselves. But it is enough to make me very curious.
This is the TC9 on steroids! Now put 25 of those in a row 😱
Found the link here: http://www.scan-speak-store.dk/en/fullrange/9-10f8424g00.html
This is the TC9 on steroids! Now put 25 of those in a row 😱
Found the link here: http://www.scan-speak-store.dk/en/fullrange/9-10f8424g00.html
Yes seems right but wouldn't write of TG9FD-08 in long run lets see. TC9FD think is much stable in Z-curve measurement and measured impulse responses under different conditions from free air to good or bad boxes it is served it just stays stable in those measurements and sound seems staying neutral/transparent signature too, admit had only 10F for a week but it seems very sensitive to above and mayby its too alive to be real neutral or transparent. This post is just subjective tech talk 😉 but i sence TC9FD a bit more neutral/transparent than 10F so far but 10F a lot more entertaining like turning on a digital enhancement filter in JRiver, it could be the looking for "eyebrows" and the real right stuff but it could also be a coloring to original track, think needs more investigation the three between therefor TG9FD-08 is on order especially because it has a much better cost than 10F.
Thanks link the pdf papers.
Either am i if we talk 50 times 10F's TG9FD-08 is a lot more eatable.
What's $5000 worth of drivers given that they will be like the ultimate $100k+ class speaker compared to stuff out there in HiFi land?
Just saying, the 10F/RS225 box sounds insanely good. There are some albums I am rediscovering. The detail is magnificent without being gritty hash. The time aligned perfect step response and sealed bass has a lot to do with the dynamics.
Just saying, the 10F/RS225 box sounds insanely good. There are some albums I am rediscovering. The detail is magnificent without being gritty hash. The time aligned perfect step response and sealed bass has a lot to do with the dynamics.
Hi BYRTT,
Would you say the 10F is less transparent or do you mean it is less neutral vs the TC9FD?
Again these are subjective terms 🙂 and sometimes can be confusing...
A driver that is more transparent would imply that it can uncover more details (lifting a veil is a favorite audiophile expression...). From what I gather from XRK971's post immediately after your's and from the subjective comparison round 2 thread, the 10F is more revealing than the TC9FD.
Well is it more/less neutral? 🙂 Both drivers measure well...
Hi zman01,
First i say stay to xrk971 words he probably right and he has great reference to compare in a HEIL AMT tweeter 700-20kHz linear and delivering some in class best impulse response. I'm pure subjective here and need at least a couple of weeks to have it measured in the deep compared to TC9FD and see if any traces there.
At present feel TC9 win for both but maybe its my reference builded up in memory to what is real transparent and what is real neutral that is little offset, if i needed a reference for distance at 1 meter i just buy a ruler and i now have a reference for precise a meter, problem for audio reproduction subjective is difficult therefor hope be wiser with objective measurements.
Agree subjective terms can be confusing in what we from person to person call details and specs perceived from reproduced sound.
Can follow what you mean but can be difficult some times that what is the true reference level of details a particular track played when testing when we haven't sat in seat at the mixer in the studio. At a time i should choose between A7.3 and A10.2 and they both was praised as natural and transparent. Got the A10.2 and then if we follow what you say it was then transparent (audiophile expression) because it did uncover more details than heard before, as time went i recognized listening music at friends at shops and in my own various sets of headphones that the detailed level was too much and story short later got them measured which wasn't fun picture that revealed natural and transparent performer, ended they more or less got some normalized soundwise using resonance (RLC) / inductance (RL) networks and army of EQ. Regarding 10F compared in same 20 sq. meter room to TC9 then it is kind of veil that is liftet and it uncover more details and if this is more truth to the recording is what to find out. I didn't feel TC9FD did lack any detail it was just a matter of turning up volume so SPL of low level detail gets up over the noice floor of modern worlds environment noise. Repeat as said previous post 10F a lot more entertaining like turning on a digital enhancement filter in JRiver and really makes me smile when listening, this include both out of box sound and if throwing EQ in, and a side note just pops up in mind it actual flawless play all tracks and genres so far and that's a good sign. Maybe i'm just suspicious after A10.2 experience with the details stuff.