Empirical fact is that you can’t get top low reproduction with only two speakers. Unless the Schroeder frequency drops below 16Hz (relating to ‘natural’ instruments here).
Hi there,
here my last 5 cent about the original tweeter question
the 1 inch dome has a quite large surround, look s like one of the speaker chassis soft parts coming from here
http://wp13470711.server-he.de/en/
to reach the high sensistivity it is probably equipped with a strong and expensive neodym motor, the coil is cooled with ferrofluid and they have a good protection so that the tweeter can't burn when the crazy owner try to check out how loud the speakers can make it with the party out of bounds
with the cost no object budget probably they could have chosen a diamond hard dome tweeter or a very expensive ribbon tweeter or an AMT, who knows what are the reasons for the choice of the tweeter, you can see it in many different models of them
even in their bookshelf low budget "kitchen speakers" for ten grands the pair
here i found something with tweeter design choice reasons of Dave Wilson
https://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/wilson_audio_alexandria_xlf.htm
QUOTE
Tweeters were his subject the morning I visited his home last week, an outgrowth of the research he did for his latest speaker, the $195,000-per-pair Alexandria XLF. On that countertop were, as Dave put it, "four great tweeters and one good one," each the product of esoteric materials and manufacturing processes, some the current darlings of speaker designers and the audio press alike. Missing were tweeters that employed technologies Wilson Audio had espoused in its earliest days -- and later in its history. There was no fabric-dome tweeter, which was used in the first version of the WAMM; Dave wistfully recalled that Braun made this tweeter and ADS distributed it in the US. Also missing was the Focal inverted-dome tweeter that Wilson Audio has used in one form or another for decades. After its logo and the configuration of its iconic two-cabinet WATT/Puppy loudspeaker, the most recognizable symbol of Wilson Audio may be this tweeter. It was first used in an early iteration of the modular WAMM system, and it has appeared in nearly every Wilson Audio speaker since, including every version of the WATT/Puppy.
What Dave Wilson was seeking from the tweeters spread out on his countertop was a driver that improved upon the Focal tweeter in two areas: dynamic contrast and harmonic expression. Neither of these things would be easily recognizable from the spec sheets of the tweeters; they are matters of quality, not quantity. While Meticulous Dave knew each tweeter's measured response and sensitivity, Discerning Dave needed to hear each driver to determine if it had potential. Then Wilson Audio would redesign and remanufacture the driver to tease the potential out of it.
Of the five tweeters, three had beryllium domes, one had a diamond dome and one a ceramic dome. Each had certain characteristics that Dave Wilson sought, but each also had issues that made it less than promising. Among these were low sensitivity (which reduced dynamic contrast); limited frequency response at the bottom end of its range, which affected its ability to transition to Wilson Audio's 6 1/2" midrange driver; a character to its sound that disqualified it; or some seemingly non-audio consideration, such as suspect reliability or materials that raised question of their future viability.
It is ironic, then, that the two-year quest for a new tweeter would come back to a technology Wilson Audio had used decades earlier. The Alexandria XLF uses a silk-dome tweeter designed by Wilson Audio and partially manufactured by Scan-Speak. "Partially" means that Scan-Speak manufactures the dome, magnet, and flange to Wilson Audio's specs, while Wilson Audio manufactures all of the rear elements of the driver. However, this tweeter is only part of the Alexandria XLF story. There was also the desire to rethink the bass output -- discover a way for the speaker to reproduce very deep, very powerful low frequencies in a wider variety of rooms. The Alexandria X-2 was front ported, while other Wilson Audio speakers had rear-firing ports. The Alexandria XLF's Cross-Load Firing system allows either front or rear configuration of the port, depending on room characteristics. As with the speaker's adjustable driver modules, the port orientation is determined when the speakers are set up in the listening room. All of these things together make the Alexandria XLF the most adaptable and room-friendly speaker in existence.
END QUOTE
so far - so good, Stefano
here my last 5 cent about the original tweeter question
the 1 inch dome has a quite large surround, look s like one of the speaker chassis soft parts coming from here
http://wp13470711.server-he.de/en/
to reach the high sensistivity it is probably equipped with a strong and expensive neodym motor, the coil is cooled with ferrofluid and they have a good protection so that the tweeter can't burn when the crazy owner try to check out how loud the speakers can make it with the party out of bounds
with the cost no object budget probably they could have chosen a diamond hard dome tweeter or a very expensive ribbon tweeter or an AMT, who knows what are the reasons for the choice of the tweeter, you can see it in many different models of them
even in their bookshelf low budget "kitchen speakers" for ten grands the pair
here i found something with tweeter design choice reasons of Dave Wilson
https://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/wilson_audio_alexandria_xlf.htm
QUOTE
Tweeters were his subject the morning I visited his home last week, an outgrowth of the research he did for his latest speaker, the $195,000-per-pair Alexandria XLF. On that countertop were, as Dave put it, "four great tweeters and one good one," each the product of esoteric materials and manufacturing processes, some the current darlings of speaker designers and the audio press alike. Missing were tweeters that employed technologies Wilson Audio had espoused in its earliest days -- and later in its history. There was no fabric-dome tweeter, which was used in the first version of the WAMM; Dave wistfully recalled that Braun made this tweeter and ADS distributed it in the US. Also missing was the Focal inverted-dome tweeter that Wilson Audio has used in one form or another for decades. After its logo and the configuration of its iconic two-cabinet WATT/Puppy loudspeaker, the most recognizable symbol of Wilson Audio may be this tweeter. It was first used in an early iteration of the modular WAMM system, and it has appeared in nearly every Wilson Audio speaker since, including every version of the WATT/Puppy.
What Dave Wilson was seeking from the tweeters spread out on his countertop was a driver that improved upon the Focal tweeter in two areas: dynamic contrast and harmonic expression. Neither of these things would be easily recognizable from the spec sheets of the tweeters; they are matters of quality, not quantity. While Meticulous Dave knew each tweeter's measured response and sensitivity, Discerning Dave needed to hear each driver to determine if it had potential. Then Wilson Audio would redesign and remanufacture the driver to tease the potential out of it.
Of the five tweeters, three had beryllium domes, one had a diamond dome and one a ceramic dome. Each had certain characteristics that Dave Wilson sought, but each also had issues that made it less than promising. Among these were low sensitivity (which reduced dynamic contrast); limited frequency response at the bottom end of its range, which affected its ability to transition to Wilson Audio's 6 1/2" midrange driver; a character to its sound that disqualified it; or some seemingly non-audio consideration, such as suspect reliability or materials that raised question of their future viability.
It is ironic, then, that the two-year quest for a new tweeter would come back to a technology Wilson Audio had used decades earlier. The Alexandria XLF uses a silk-dome tweeter designed by Wilson Audio and partially manufactured by Scan-Speak. "Partially" means that Scan-Speak manufactures the dome, magnet, and flange to Wilson Audio's specs, while Wilson Audio manufactures all of the rear elements of the driver. However, this tweeter is only part of the Alexandria XLF story. There was also the desire to rethink the bass output -- discover a way for the speaker to reproduce very deep, very powerful low frequencies in a wider variety of rooms. The Alexandria X-2 was front ported, while other Wilson Audio speakers had rear-firing ports. The Alexandria XLF's Cross-Load Firing system allows either front or rear configuration of the port, depending on room characteristics. As with the speaker's adjustable driver modules, the port orientation is determined when the speakers are set up in the listening room. All of these things together make the Alexandria XLF the most adaptable and room-friendly speaker in existence.
END QUOTE
so far - so good, Stefano
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Eighteen off topic posts about wealth and who can afford stuff and who idolises what have been deleted.
Any more and the thread will be closed.
Ok, here’s one. The tweeter choice is perfectly valid. Playback levels of these speakers obviously will stay within casual listening and background music for 99 percent of the time. 😆
In addition to https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...e-wilson-audio-alexandria.427811/post-8017109
for the tweeter i found hints of what Wilson Audio is doing with the high range speaker chassis in a newer review of a Wilson Audio speaker model in a german magazine
the dome, the magnet and the flange are Scan-Speak, whether Scan-Speak buy the dome from DKM or not (the domes look like DKM soft parts for sure) - don't know
the rear chamber is very sophisticated and Wilson Audio proprietary development to reduce chamber resonances, in the mean time built of a special carbon fiber material, don't know if the first implementation came already with the 2012 Alexandria XLF flagship model
that's it, Stefano
P.S.:
in the very old days of my DIY speaker building efforts i have bought directly from Dynaudio a charge of twenty D28 tweeter
after the initial project turned out in a complete failure i was sitting on a couple of tweeters left over and i used two Dynaudio D28 of the charge with removed front wave guide and modified rear chamber in a pair of tower speaker for a friend with two KEF B139 stacked in two separate enclosures and a Richard Allen 8 inch polypropylene cone with a huge magnet motor for mid-range, it was one of my best speakers ever built especially for the high range sound quality
for the tweeter i found hints of what Wilson Audio is doing with the high range speaker chassis in a newer review of a Wilson Audio speaker model in a german magazine
the dome, the magnet and the flange are Scan-Speak, whether Scan-Speak buy the dome from DKM or not (the domes look like DKM soft parts for sure) - don't know
the rear chamber is very sophisticated and Wilson Audio proprietary development to reduce chamber resonances, in the mean time built of a special carbon fiber material, don't know if the first implementation came already with the 2012 Alexandria XLF flagship model
that's it, Stefano
P.S.:
in the very old days of my DIY speaker building efforts i have bought directly from Dynaudio a charge of twenty D28 tweeter
after the initial project turned out in a complete failure i was sitting on a couple of tweeters left over and i used two Dynaudio D28 of the charge with removed front wave guide and modified rear chamber in a pair of tower speaker for a friend with two KEF B139 stacked in two separate enclosures and a Richard Allen 8 inch polypropylene cone with a huge magnet motor for mid-range, it was one of my best speakers ever built especially for the high range sound quality
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A somewhat general question: a number of high end manufacturers, including Wilson and Magico, claim to make their own drivers. I assumed that this meant Dr Kurt Müller or the like were developing and manufacturing custom units for those speaker makers, and that the latter did not really have the in house competence to do it themselves. Wilson making their own magnets? Magico making their own membranes? Does anyone know how the manufacturing and design chains work at the very high end?
quick correction to this one
this statement is quoted from the article https://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/wilson_audio_alexandria_xlf.htm
Dr. Kurt Müller is delivering soft parts of speaker chassis like cones and diaphragms for Wavecor, this i know for sure
The pictures check from the Wilson Audio website and the search on internet reveals that most of their chassis are more or less modified Scan-Speak chassis
hope it helps, Stefano
this statement is quoted from the article https://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/wilson_audio_alexandria_xlf.htm
Dr. Kurt Müller is delivering soft parts of speaker chassis like cones and diaphragms for Wavecor, this i know for sure
The pictures check from the Wilson Audio website and the search on internet reveals that most of their chassis are more or less modified Scan-Speak chassis
hope it helps, Stefano
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I don’t think anyone touched on this but labor in the US is expensive and there is a lot of labor involved with building those speakers. The price of those speakers reflects the high cost to build them and not their performance. If a person only looked at their price😛erformance ratio they will be disappointed and that’s fair.
In theory, if I could build something as nice as a Wilson, it would take me so much time (I’m slow!), it would likely be cheaper to buy the Wilson once my time is taken into account.
This forum seems to be moving towards the empirically objective side of the isle……and yet listening to to music is a purely subjective activity
If someone spends mega $$$ on a speaker for themselves, you can be sure that confirmation bias is the greatest performance factor.
We all hear things differently……both scientifically, biologically and objectively. Our outer ear structure is our waveguides…..and no two are the same and as we get older and the cartilage sags from gravity and reduced collagen, the timbre changes along with spatial awareness and acuity. Add pharmaceuticals, blood pressure, temperament and other biological factors in and things get even more complex…..and this all without the subjective factors…..whew.
And sorry fellas but tone sweeps, bursts, decay and distortion measures don’t tell you much about how a driver will sound with complex musical content……the behavior of the transducer with harmonics is now operating on an exponential level.
If the argument here is that two 1” dome tweeters will suffer power compression and/or distortion before the accompanying drive units…..fine. One could assert that this is the systems limiting performance function. Hate to say it but some folks enjoy 2nd order HD……and most folks aural capacity will become fatigued right around the same time as power compression sets in with high output levels.
I’ve sat in some pretty expensive modern chairs in high end homes…..each more comfortable than the next…..but I remember why those chairs looked like and how they felt…..as compared to the run of the mill comfy stuff…..can’t remember at all. That says something in itself.
If someone spends mega $$$ on a speaker for themselves, you can be sure that confirmation bias is the greatest performance factor.
We all hear things differently……both scientifically, biologically and objectively. Our outer ear structure is our waveguides…..and no two are the same and as we get older and the cartilage sags from gravity and reduced collagen, the timbre changes along with spatial awareness and acuity. Add pharmaceuticals, blood pressure, temperament and other biological factors in and things get even more complex…..and this all without the subjective factors…..whew.
And sorry fellas but tone sweeps, bursts, decay and distortion measures don’t tell you much about how a driver will sound with complex musical content……the behavior of the transducer with harmonics is now operating on an exponential level.
If the argument here is that two 1” dome tweeters will suffer power compression and/or distortion before the accompanying drive units…..fine. One could assert that this is the systems limiting performance function. Hate to say it but some folks enjoy 2nd order HD……and most folks aural capacity will become fatigued right around the same time as power compression sets in with high output levels.
I’ve sat in some pretty expensive modern chairs in high end homes…..each more comfortable than the next…..but I remember why those chairs looked like and how they felt…..as compared to the run of the mill comfy stuff…..can’t remember at all. That says something in itself.
I've made some speakers with compression drivers, and I feel like the additional dynamic capacity / lack of compression is substantial, relative to normal ol domes. I think lotsa folks have subconsciously adjusted to tweeter compression and think it sounds normal. I think some amp and transducer distortion / compression signatures get incorporated into people's perception as "that's loud".
Most people prefer the taste of artificial vanilla over real, homemade jam from fresh berries don’t score as well as commercial brands in blind tests..
I don’t know. Erin tests compression regularly and looking at his results, I am not convinced CD’s perform better at normal listening levels. People seem to forget anything above 100dB is really LOUD.
Focal makes every part in house, and sells OEM version to other brands. But many let specialised companies (like Scanspeak) make a design of a tweeter that fit's their purpose and budget. There are many companies like that, some very known (Scanspeak, Seas, Focal, ...) some totally unkown to the general public. Very few work like Focal from scratch to end product.
