Hello Members,
I'm pondering a new build but haven't decided what. Here's my dilemma: I have the Alpair 10p in a Pensil enclosure, which I like alot, and the 12.2p in a 19L bass reflex standmount, which I'm not too crazy about. I listen to rock and a bit of everything else except classical. I would like to have a floorstander, for rock, and a bookshelve/standmout, for everything else.
I am really interested in trying Scott's DCR, Juliet(12.2p) or Titania(10p).
Since I listening to a lot of rock, I was thinking of building a SuperPensil 12.2p and compare it to the Pensil 10p and then keep the one that suites my taste. I would then use the other driver in one of the 2 DCRs. Unfortunately not too many DCR using the Mark Audio drivers have been built, so, I would like to pick your brains as to what is my best option based on your experience with the Pensils and the DCRs specs on paper?
Thanks
I'm pondering a new build but haven't decided what. Here's my dilemma: I have the Alpair 10p in a Pensil enclosure, which I like alot, and the 12.2p in a 19L bass reflex standmount, which I'm not too crazy about. I listen to rock and a bit of everything else except classical. I would like to have a floorstander, for rock, and a bookshelve/standmout, for everything else.
I am really interested in trying Scott's DCR, Juliet(12.2p) or Titania(10p).
Since I listening to a lot of rock, I was thinking of building a SuperPensil 12.2p and compare it to the Pensil 10p and then keep the one that suites my taste. I would then use the other driver in one of the 2 DCRs. Unfortunately not too many DCR using the Mark Audio drivers have been built, so, I would like to pick your brains as to what is my best option based on your experience with the Pensils and the DCRs specs on paper?
Thanks
While I do not have experience with the Pensil design or the titular MA drivers, I think it would be useful for those who do, to know what area of the 12.2P's performance in stand-mount reflex you feel is lacking. What amplifier are you driving the 12.2P with? A few Ohms of drive impedance might be good considering its low-ish Qt, assuming you find the bass anemic. Continuing on that assumption, how are you dealing with baffle-step on it?
As for the DCR concept in general, I have designed and built one I quite like and I think it can be a good 'everything' speaker, much like a sensible simple reflex can, but the overall character is not mile apart.
As for the DCR concept in general, I have designed and built one I quite like and I think it can be a good 'everything' speaker, much like a sensible simple reflex can, but the overall character is not mile apart.
Yes,I find the bass on the 19L 12.2p standmount anemic. It would be great if the 12.2p in a DCR would go down as low as the 10p in the Pensil but I guess that can't be considering the size of the box.
My goal is not necessarily to find an allrounder, although it would be nice, but to use both drivers for what they are good at. Since the 12.2p lacks in the low frequency, it would make sense to put it in a large enclosure (SuperPensil). The 10p being the more finesse driver of the 2 would probably do better than the 12.2p in the DCR.
My goal is not necessarily to find an allrounder, although it would be nice, but to use both drivers for what they are good at. Since the 12.2p lacks in the low frequency, it would make sense to put it in a large enclosure (SuperPensil). The 10p being the more finesse driver of the 2 would probably do better than the 12.2p in the DCR.
bianchi,
In my experience, a modestly sized single full-range / wideband speaker was not able to provide me a satisfactory experience with rock music. Dire Straits sounded fine, but more noisy stuff, not so much. And lot of the rock/metal music recordings are on the thin side. I got better results with multi-way systems.
If you would still like to use wideband drivers for mid and tweeter duties, then you can consider WAW/FAST speakers.
There is a saying "there is no replacement for displacement", and for rock/metal I would agree; the cone area matters for such music. 🙂
In my experience, a modestly sized single full-range / wideband speaker was not able to provide me a satisfactory experience with rock music. Dire Straits sounded fine, but more noisy stuff, not so much. And lot of the rock/metal music recordings are on the thin side. I got better results with multi-way systems.
If you would still like to use wideband drivers for mid and tweeter duties, then you can consider WAW/FAST speakers.
There is a saying "there is no replacement for displacement", and for rock/metal I would agree; the cone area matters for such music. 🙂
An alternative to a WAW is a 1.5 way especially as you have the bigger of the MA range. Just add a woofer with a series inductor both in parallel with the full ranger. That way you still have full range to the MA but have baffle step compensation from the extra woofer and a much simpler filter. Most mid-woofers have lower sensitivity than the 10p and 12p which is not a bad thing as you probably don't need the full 6db boost. Bi-amp and you can adjust bass boost to taste. You could even combine your current MAs into a 1.5 way.
Both WAW and 1.5 way are very good alternatives as suggested, it relieves duties from the main driver, and it lowers distortion. My own experience is that sealed enclosure gives tighter and higher quality bass for electric music compared to the more commonly used bass reflex option.
I did consider a WAW at one point but since it would need crossovers and a custom designed box, I gave up on the idea. I don't know how to build crossovers or design boxes and I don't know anyone close to me that does. I rely on proven designs by Scott and Dave.
I would love to put the 12.2p in a 2 way WAW box design but unfortunately I haven't found a proven design that works. If you know of one, let me know, I will consider it. BTW, keep in mind that I am using a 6 watts EL84 SEP tube amp and I will not bi-amp.
I would love to put the 12.2p in a 2 way WAW box design but unfortunately I haven't found a proven design that works. If you know of one, let me know, I will consider it. BTW, keep in mind that I am using a 6 watts EL84 SEP tube amp and I will not bi-amp.
Agree, building a passive crossover is difficult. I therefore instead went digital, bought a MiniDSP 2x4HD and crossover design is just dead easy. Combine this with the excellent measurement tool REW & Umik 1 and you have a very powerful package.
However, going for proven designs is safe of course. Good luck with the project🙂
However, going for proven designs is safe of course. Good luck with the project🙂
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Do you know the damping factor / output impedance of this amp? What is the tuning frequency of your 19L reflex enclosure? Is there currently any form of baffle-step compensation?
Simulating the 12.2P in WinISD, 19L looks good tuned from 40Hz to 45Hz, assuming ~2ohm of drive impedance. This is what I have on a 6GW8 SEP amp.
A12p in a SuperPensil will definitely rock. Personal listening preferences will dictate how much power you want/need. 5 watts isn't enough for me. These drivers really want a big enclosure, so no surprise a 19L BR box isn't doing it for you.
jeff
jeff
I also tried for a long time with wideband /full-range drivers and low watt tube amps to satisfy my needs, but eventually moved to the "dark side" (solid state amps and multiway speakers) 🙂. The most versatile wideband drivers I've used are the Alpair 10 MAOP and Alpair 10.3. A wideband driver paired with a tube amp reproduces certain genres very well, such as acoustic, small jazz ensembles, girl and guitar. For more complex music I have found other options more satisfying.
Most WAW designs will use a smaller wideband driver (3" - 5.25") with a larger woofer. The Alpair 12.2P has the cone area of a 6.5" - 7" driver and I am not aware of any WAW designs using it. Even for other WAWs, you will probably need a more powerful amp.
OK, which current driver(s) MA or otherwise come closest to the CSS EL70 performance wise as it was quite impressive overall for R&R music, especially loaded in various types of RS 40-1354 MLTLs.
TIA
TIA
IDK, probably, perhaps Dr. Scott the designer will chime it to answer what you give up and or gain with the Juliet 12.2p vs. 12.2p pensil (super pensil) and 12.2p JOAN horn?
If I'm not mistaken with JOAN the horn action takes over at ~ 200Hz or thereabouts thus relieving the driver of being pushed to the low end and the resultant distortion. Loosely speaking somewhat as adding a helper woofer?
Still, I'd hope you'll give the Juliet 12.2p a shot, take away my temptation to be the guineapig.
The wealth of knowledge on this forum always impressed me, hence why I come back for advise. But I would like to make something clear, I have both the A10p and A12.2p and intend on keeping and using both. I am not looking for an allrounder using either drivers. The Pensil 10p are hooked up to the aforementioned amp, 6 Watts EL84 SEP Integrated, and play louder than I am willing to tolerate and will ignore anyone that suggest that I get something more powerful or worst, solid state (LOL). The 10p are great but are not the best for rock as any fullrangers aren't. I have the 12.2p in a 19L standmount and they don't do it for me. VinylKid58 recommends the SuperPensil 12.2p for rock and are an option that I am investigating along with the Juliet DCR 12.2p and maybe the 12.2p WAW. Any good designs using the 12.2p in a 2 way system? I haven't found any so if you know of any, let me know.
BTW if Scott or Dave have paid WAW designs using the 12.2p, I am willing to consider them.
BTW if Scott or Dave have paid WAW designs using the 12.2p, I am willing to consider them.
Pretty sure there was never a WAW design for the A12p. There are a couple designs for the 12pw woofer thou. You get deeper bass extension with the 12pw woofer in a smaller box, so not much point in doing a 2-way with the A12p.
jeff
jeff