i am in the process of designing two "end game" systems in parallel - one horn based and one array based - when the designs are finalized i will compare them in terms of price and performance to see which technology / approach makes more sense
one thing i am finding out with both of them is i can't find a single driver from B&C that i can use - they all fall short
B&C reminds me of Toyota - we all want Toyota reliability but you can never get a Toyota specced how you want it - it is always missing something that is a deal breaker for example no All Wheel Drive - or they make you choose between AWD and Hybrid or between Hybrid and Turbo etc. Why do i have to choose ? With other companies like BMW you can get Turbo Hybrid AWD no problem - why can't Toyota do it ?
B&C is like that ...
some of the features that are often missing on B&C drivers that are fairly standard on drivers from better brands:
Ok i get it - B&C is a workhorse brand. it doesn't make flashy toys like Beyma, Faital and 18 Sound ... but why Made in Italy then ? If you're a budget brand then make stuff in China like LaVoce or in Brazil like Selenium or in Indonesia like SB Acoustics or for that matter in Mexico like JBL
who buys "Made in Italy" looking for value in a boring product ?
i don't get how that company is successful ...
look at Beyma LEX woofers or NTLW woofers from 18 Sound and ask yourself why B&C doesn't have anything cool like that ? ok B&C owns 18 Sound so in a way they do, but not under their own brand.
B&C = Lame Boring drivers that just do the job and nothing more. Their "innovation" is a joke. Their Coax is just a worse version of BMS and WTF is this:
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-b-c-speakers-1-dh450-8-compression-driver
they are actually proud of this product ...
here is its smaller brother in Joseph Crowe's hand:
this isn't innovation. this is just cheapness. i don't need whatever that is made in Italy. or at all.
who asked for a Mercedes Smart Car of compression drivers ?
to be made in Italy ...
one thing i am finding out with both of them is i can't find a single driver from B&C that i can use - they all fall short
B&C reminds me of Toyota - we all want Toyota reliability but you can never get a Toyota specced how you want it - it is always missing something that is a deal breaker for example no All Wheel Drive - or they make you choose between AWD and Hybrid or between Hybrid and Turbo etc. Why do i have to choose ? With other companies like BMW you can get Turbo Hybrid AWD no problem - why can't Toyota do it ?
B&C is like that ...
some of the features that are often missing on B&C drivers that are fairly standard on drivers from better brands:
- Vented Pole Piece in Neo Woofers
- Under Spider Venting
- Inside / Outside Voice Coils
- Basket designs that don't all look like a wheel from a Golf Cart
Ok i get it - B&C is a workhorse brand. it doesn't make flashy toys like Beyma, Faital and 18 Sound ... but why Made in Italy then ? If you're a budget brand then make stuff in China like LaVoce or in Brazil like Selenium or in Indonesia like SB Acoustics or for that matter in Mexico like JBL
who buys "Made in Italy" looking for value in a boring product ?
i don't get how that company is successful ...
look at Beyma LEX woofers or NTLW woofers from 18 Sound and ask yourself why B&C doesn't have anything cool like that ? ok B&C owns 18 Sound so in a way they do, but not under their own brand.
B&C = Lame Boring drivers that just do the job and nothing more. Their "innovation" is a joke. Their Coax is just a worse version of BMS and WTF is this:
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-b-c-speakers-1-dh450-8-compression-driver
they are actually proud of this product ...
here is its smaller brother in Joseph Crowe's hand:
this isn't innovation. this is just cheapness. i don't need whatever that is made in Italy. or at all.
who asked for a Mercedes Smart Car of compression drivers ?
to be made in Italy ...
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Possibly in the near future the man in charge will make sure you can only buy locally produced goods without incurring a large markup.
My experience with B&C drivers is they do everything they should, with no unwanted surprises. I guess my Toyota's have been the same, but that's a good thing!
absolutely not. if it was good they wouldn't have to price the driver at below $100.
Designers from companies such as Danley Sound Labs, L-Acoustics, EAW, Fulcrum Acoustics and dozens of others have chosen drivers from B&C that work well in their horn, front loaded and array designs.
If you look at B&C spec sheets you will find a variety of drivers with the first three features mentioned.
As far as basket designs, supporting the weight of heavy magnets while being loaded in and out of trucks on a daily basis does result in some that look like wheels.
B&Cs products are used because they work consistently well, which is a good recipe for success.
Most speaker designers look for drivers that work well for the specific application.
You won't bother B&C if you decide to use other's products on the basis of "cool".
The DH450 is a response to a customer base looking for high power density, low distortion drivers at a lower cost than previously available.
Their high frequency co-ax drivers have been chosen over BMS for their performance attributes.
Having been an Electro-Voice transducer dealer last century, I found it interesting to see they are using B&C woofers and coax HF drivers and in their current MTS multiple entrant horn systems:
There are still some still niche transducer market segments that B&C does not cover, but like Cowanaudio and hundreds of other speaker designers, my experience with B&C drivers is also they do everything they should, with no unwanted surprises.
Art
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Yup, stay with a wallflower instead of chasing a prom queen to hear one day she got pregnant with the other guy.
I have experienced B&C drivers in a few Pro PA systems and I've never been disappointed. The DCX 464 produces the cleanest mid-range and top end I've experienced. It also measures really well when implemented properly because it has a spectacular phase response. Maybe they don't work for you, but I have always been impressed and I think there's a legitimate reason that they are as popular as they are.
No. It's a small diaphragm, the phase plug requirements are not the same.
To use an analogy of the kind you have used... a smaller engine doesn't need as many cylinders to ensure full combustion at higher rotational speeds.
B&C is mainly targetting pro audio, and makes drivers that their clients want (but based on engineering). No audiowhoo or exoctic matieraals, just working speakers fit for their goal. That is why they are so popular in the pro audio world. And their speakers are also very reliable, what is also a factor.
I'll hop in..
I respect your right to your opinion obviously, but you're having a go at a company who does what they do very well. Obviously aimed largely toward the pro market, their drivers are very good performing, durable, have appropriate power handling for the usage scenarios and are generally very well built. This ticks all the boxes for pro drivers. A few of the speciifcs you mention DO seem to be available in some of their models for record. High quality, robust, European manufactured pro drivers are valid, and obviously works for them. I'm having a difficult time understanding why you wish to dismiss them to the likes of the typically garbage Chinese pro-drivers - there's a world of difference there.
I respect your right to your opinion obviously, but you're having a go at a company who does what they do very well. Obviously aimed largely toward the pro market, their drivers are very good performing, durable, have appropriate power handling for the usage scenarios and are generally very well built. This ticks all the boxes for pro drivers. A few of the speciifcs you mention DO seem to be available in some of their models for record. High quality, robust, European manufactured pro drivers are valid, and obviously works for them. I'm having a difficult time understanding why you wish to dismiss them to the likes of the typically garbage Chinese pro-drivers - there's a world of difference there.
Hmm. Some bloke from the USA with a chip on his shoulder (clearly) makes weird criticism of Europeans. Where have I seen that before?
Agreed - basket appearance is of such critical importance when hidden inside a box, and whist we're on the subject of aesthetics, I feel exactly the same about all those boring round grey magnets everyone seems to use...😉
B&C has drivers with .2 Qts, Dual spiders, 1700 watts with 17mm Xmax ...LOL !!!
One heck of a speaker unbelievable BL just exactly what would be better?
Some of the better Horns and drivers out there.
I didnt think anything would pull harder than my old Hemi truck.
Hooked up harder and stronger and for sure smoother than some of my old dial in cars with stall converters.
Tried a Toyota and boy oh boy no turbo needed in that truck. It moved.
One heck of a speaker unbelievable BL just exactly what would be better?
Some of the better Horns and drivers out there.
I didnt think anything would pull harder than my old Hemi truck.
Hooked up harder and stronger and for sure smoother than some of my old dial in cars with stall converters.
Tried a Toyota and boy oh boy no turbo needed in that truck. It moved.
Dont worry were not all like that.
Take things for what they are not origin.
Interesting and Innovative things made by Interesting and Innovative people get credit
Were just citizens trying to recover from everything we had being sold by evil people.
They just didnt realize that nobody would buy the stuff, if they removed all our jobs.
Why it seems harsh, just everyday people trying to survive.
Not a they or them situation, that is the media. It has been going down Hill by they and them for awhile.
Both of them sold out over the years. Basically since the late 90's
Go e.g. for a Scan-Speak 26W/8867T00 then. Because this driver ...
- has a fancy, really "bully" magnet assembly.
Better don't mind that it's nothing but a ridiculous, acoustically/technically nonsense rubber cushion around the magnet structure which makes it look this huge.
- has a fancy and slim-as-can-be 7-star basket design.
Better don't care that it's so delicate that it may brake if you handle it a bit uncoutiously, as one of mine did.
- has a fancy and uncommonly unique 7-holes attachment pattern to match the aforementionned fancy 7-star basket geometry. Everybody will immediately notice, it's a real eye-catcher.
Better don't mind that a boring 6- or 8-star geometry would be much less of an annoyance to attach this driver to a baffle.
- has a fancy slim flange with fancily designed, uniquely recessed 7 holes.
Better don't care that it's ridiculously slim bridges of metal between the holes and the flange's rim will break at the slightest stress overload. Also this happened with one of my drivers.
This driver indeed is very bellsy and whistly looking, much fancier than any B&C. Go for it!
You won't be disappoint!
But maybe you are not interested in building anything at all. IMO all you do in your first post is to twofold project braggy end game (?) vaporware in order to troll B&C. How did you say?
Right!
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IME, most Europeans don't try to extrapolate quality from the "Made in" in the same way as Americans do.
Bad products are bad products wherever they come from.
Saying a country produce only garbage or out of this world products ( Italy, China, USA,...) does not make any sense as it can't be generalised and seems to show either lack of knowledge of cultures, field of interest and such.
Dissident Sound, are you in possession of any B&C products or your pov comes only from internet and pictures/video?
If you have not used the things then this kind of comments are kind of pointless imo: it's at best based on unverified word of mouth or at worst plain fantasy about what a product should be without consideration of real life offers/products.
You don't even gives enough info about what is the intended purpose maybe except 'endgame system' which can be anything as this is so subjective. Rather first define your goals and limitations you'll face to define suitability of a driver or not.
Driver choice is often the last one to be made in a successful design process ime.
Saying a country produce only garbage or out of this world products ( Italy, China, USA,...) does not make any sense as it can't be generalised and seems to show either lack of knowledge of cultures, field of interest and such.
Dissident Sound, are you in possession of any B&C products or your pov comes only from internet and pictures/video?
If you have not used the things then this kind of comments are kind of pointless imo: it's at best based on unverified word of mouth or at worst plain fantasy about what a product should be without consideration of real life offers/products.
You don't even gives enough info about what is the intended purpose maybe except 'endgame system' which can be anything as this is so subjective. Rather first define your goals and limitations you'll face to define suitability of a driver or not.
Driver choice is often the last one to be made in a successful design process ime.