If so:
Baffle diffraction model-
2.83V sensitivity: ~88.5dB / 2.83V (8 ohm nominal)
F3 / F6 /F10 = 55 / 44 / 35Hz :
Maximum sustained output: > 107dB (4pi)
Long term max SPL (2pi)
≥111 dB
Maximum long term acoustic output on axis in half space, averaged from 100 Hz to 1 kHz at 1 m without exceeding manufacturer's 100-hour IEC268-5 weight pink noise power handling and not exceeding manufacturer rated x-max*
Baffle diffraction model-
2.83V sensitivity: ~88.5dB / 2.83V (8 ohm nominal)
F3 / F6 /F10 = 55 / 44 / 35Hz :
Maximum sustained output: > 107dB (4pi)
Long term max SPL (2pi)
≥111 dB
Maximum long term acoustic output on axis in half space, averaged from 100 Hz to 1 kHz at 1 m without exceeding manufacturer's 100-hour IEC268-5 weight pink noise power handling and not exceeding manufacturer rated x-max*
Reference: Tymphany's updated datasheet explaining linear excursion is recalculated (Hvc - Hag )/2 + Hag /3 = 10.9mm *
Appendix:
JBL 100 Classic:
90dB/2.83V (8 ohm nominal)
F3 - 62Hz, F6 - 45Hz. F10- 34Hz
Reference: Audioholics review of JBL Classic (2018))
Appendix:
JBL 100 Classic:
90dB/2.83V (8 ohm nominal)
F3 - 62Hz, F6 - 45Hz. F10- 34Hz
Reference: Audioholics review of JBL Classic (2018))
Of course, by adjusting your baffle diffraction loss compensation you can lower F3... but then you further lower sensitivity in the region above ~200Hz. And then you need to bring down the mid and pad the tweeter.
It's all a trade-off. Total system sensitivity goes down.
That's why the 12" SLS in a 65L cabinet can already go deeper than the L100 Classic, despite being a sealed box:
the sensitivity is lower.
There's no free lunch.
It's all a trade-off. Total system sensitivity goes down.
That's why the 12" SLS in a 65L cabinet can already go deeper than the L100 Classic, despite being a sealed box:
the sensitivity is lower.
There's no free lunch.
yup,
do we know how much DCR is adding the low pass filter function in Vituix ? or something else occurs when adding a low pass ? I simed with a lowpass 12dB at 180 hz most of the time for a 2Pi +F6 around 250/300 Hz according the 12" driver. So anyway 6 dB loss at minima for the woof at 4 Pi.
Also being 12 dB slope, the F10 goes lower than a vented, so excite more room modes perhaps, hence deeper bass, whatever they are low in spl.
250 to 300 Hz acoustical crossover seems the rigth tarhet both for the 12" and a 5". Most 5" at those prices and even more expensive beginns to raise a lot with odd harmonics (H5 and so on). And most 12" don't like go higher than 200 Hz for most for the same reasons.
Of course we could find a midwoof with more efficienty that goes lower the clean way to winn 100 Hz to 150 Hz of cut off, so 2 to 3 dB gain for the woofer. But thos midwoof are expensive or your climb in driver diameter (6", etc).
No free lunch indeed ! With the NE-149W , I won't go lower than 250 Hz 12dB slope ! So the others of the selection will not do better. Well the SLS-12" seems clean enough at 300 hz reading Dibirama THD test, but not sure it sounds good for real ? No idea !
do we know how much DCR is adding the low pass filter function in Vituix ? or something else occurs when adding a low pass ? I simed with a lowpass 12dB at 180 hz most of the time for a 2Pi +F6 around 250/300 Hz according the 12" driver. So anyway 6 dB loss at minima for the woof at 4 Pi.
Also being 12 dB slope, the F10 goes lower than a vented, so excite more room modes perhaps, hence deeper bass, whatever they are low in spl.
250 to 300 Hz acoustical crossover seems the rigth tarhet both for the 12" and a 5". Most 5" at those prices and even more expensive beginns to raise a lot with odd harmonics (H5 and so on). And most 12" don't like go higher than 200 Hz for most for the same reasons.
Of course we could find a midwoof with more efficienty that goes lower the clean way to winn 100 Hz to 150 Hz of cut off, so 2 to 3 dB gain for the woofer. But thos midwoof are expensive or your climb in driver diameter (6", etc).
No free lunch indeed ! With the NE-149W , I won't go lower than 250 Hz 12dB slope ! So the others of the selection will not do better. Well the SLS-12" seems clean enough at 300 hz reading Dibirama THD test, but not sure it sounds good for real ? No idea !
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250 to 300hz is also where the baffle step occurs. I tend to choose a woofer that is 3dB more than the mid in that case, or attenuate the mid and so create the bsc.
The SLS12 looks usable to 500Hz for me, the ringing starts arround 1kHz (see csd plot), And the impendance is clean to about 700hz, where small wigglings start that suggest the first resonances. So 250-300Hz should not be an issue i think.
The SLS12 looks usable to 500Hz for me, the ringing starts arround 1kHz (see csd plot), And the impendance is clean to about 700hz, where small wigglings start that suggest the first resonances. So 250-300Hz should not be an issue i think.
YES! A version of this should be added to the first post!
I guess "sensitivity" should be changed to "impedance".
What do you mean by "frequency output"? Why limit to near-wall placement?
This would benefit from approximate numbers with some of the more important currencies.
Overall, this picks up from the OSMC, but with (i) much lower requirements re. sensitivity and impedance and (ii) constraints on money (not sure how much though).
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tktran303 - we have several (too many) midrange options. I think your design goals are good examples for a general speaker, but do any of those help us choose which midrange? (Which was also hifijim's point above in response to mbrennwa's post.) The thing is, we could set some SPL and distortion targets but all of our midrange choices are going to satisfy them.
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Because that is in reality where most will use them. Not many have the space for a dedicated music room where they can have space arround the speakers, they are mostly set close or against a wall.
Somebody made a good point earlier...crossing higher requires a smaller inductor which can lower the xo cost. For a budget build, that is worth keeping in mind.
From here we start to lose precision the more we simulate from datasheets
(NOT RECOMMENDED / NOT intended use of VituixCAD),
But as a quick and dirty...
Tools -> SPL Trace the datasheet:
Merger with LF simulation:
Loading the Merged frequency responses, and simulated impedance responses:
VituixCAD2 6-pack
If using 830669 in 60L closed box with 39cm wide cabinet, about 0.5ohm of series resistance, expect
system sensitivity of 87dB/2.83V and closed box F3 / F6 / F10 of 54 / 45 / 37Hz
So bass extension similar to vented L100 Classic, but loss of 3dB sensitivity. (Hoffman's Iron Law)
--> Look for midrange with sensitivity of 87dB/2.83V or higher
NB. crossover point not fixed at 500Hz, will likely be somewhere 400-600Hz depending on real in-box directivity of midrange and phase coherence...
(NOT RECOMMENDED / NOT intended use of VituixCAD),
But as a quick and dirty...
Tools -> SPL Trace the datasheet:
Merger with LF simulation:
Loading the Merged frequency responses, and simulated impedance responses:
VituixCAD2 6-pack
If using 830669 in 60L closed box with 39cm wide cabinet, about 0.5ohm of series resistance, expect
system sensitivity of 87dB/2.83V and closed box F3 / F6 / F10 of 54 / 45 / 37Hz
So bass extension similar to vented L100 Classic, but loss of 3dB sensitivity. (Hoffman's Iron Law)
--> Look for midrange with sensitivity of 87dB/2.83V or higher
NB. crossover point not fixed at 500Hz, will likely be somewhere 400-600Hz depending on real in-box directivity of midrange and phase coherence...
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They will be very useful once we have some numbers for the total cost per speaker.
Let's trim a little- based on too low sensitivity for use a pure midrange.
Some 8 ohm drivers are <87dB/2.83V: too low in sensitivity. Consider -> 4 ohm variant if suitable/available.
What next?
Trim based on looks or reputation?
Faital Pro 4FE-42 or 4FE35 (Ferrite version) FOUR INCH MID? Too ugly?
What about listening tests?
Consider a trial listen to:
Dayton DA115 (stiff cone, ordinary motor) vs Wavecor WF120BD04 (soft cone, advanced motor)
download recordings here
Some 8 ohm drivers are <87dB/2.83V: too low in sensitivity. Consider -> 4 ohm variant if suitable/available.
What next?
Trim based on looks or reputation?
Faital Pro 4FE-42 or 4FE35 (Ferrite version) FOUR INCH MID? Too ugly?
What about listening tests?
Consider a trial listen to:
Dayton DA115 (stiff cone, ordinary motor) vs Wavecor WF120BD04 (soft cone, advanced motor)
download recordings here
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Some noticed a XO > 300 Hz is less invisible to the ears, and the best bet is to approach 3 octaves width for the mid as a pass band driver for the low and high pass have enough distance. Is there so much price difference between two coils with a XO at 250 Hz and 500 Hz ???? Not so much I found.
As the size between 5", 4", 6"... I would anyway focus on the driver + front baffle radiation patern as the width of the front baffle is significant in a 3 Ways classic box.
If no HDS sourcable everywhere, what about the 5" discovery NSC fiber from SS ? <80 Hz... may have less break ups than the Wavecores !
As the size between 5", 4", 6"... I would anyway focus on the driver + front baffle radiation patern as the width of the front baffle is significant in a 3 Ways classic box.
If no HDS sourcable everywhere, what about the 5" discovery NSC fiber from SS ? <80 Hz... may have less break ups than the Wavecores !
An interesting point. Could also be a good thing in the right circumstances?
Some of it depends on how well you cross, regardless of frequency.
Diyiggy, you got it wrong by concluding no HDS were available for purchase. PPB and glass fibre versions are both
available in U.S. and EU for more than an acceptable price.
Wagner.au seems to be able to order on demand.
available in U.S. and EU for more than an acceptable price.
Wagner.au seems to be able to order on demand.
So the HDS fiber one is a good bet too. I looked at Wagner yesterday for our aussie friends, and I see the the 5.1/4 glass fiber was NLA on their site... or maybe was it the nomex ?!
The 6.5" is easily avialable also, but it seems too big according our road map.
The 6.5" is easily avialable also, but it seems too big according our road map.
4" options are out of the equation, for now. I trust Peerless is a better deal than any of the Faitals.
the only glass fiber I saw from the normal HDS line big enough (the ex is the gen after with its bullet) is 6.5" : https://www.wagneronline.com.au/peereless/ps/ or a 4".
SDS is less good.
SDS is less good.
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