Budget Classic 3-way Discussion Thread

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#681
Here is the very technical reason we NEED a 5" driver...

JBL L100...this speaker with a 5" midrange looks cool!! 😎
JBL L100.png



This speaker has a 4" midrange and looks uncool!! 🤓
(Admittedly, it isn't really THAT uncool, but the 5" looks better.)

KLH Model Five.png
 
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#682
The SB15NRX2C30 would be a great choice, and it seems the sensitivity is just high enough to work.

A budget speaker is all about the compromises. My opinion is the SB12MNRX is a very good driver at the right price, the only disadvantage is the looks. It is better to make a compromise on aesthetics rather than select a lesser midrange driver... yes?

I think a very nice speaker could be made from either of these.
 
#683
I totally get it.

If it looks good, then it sounds even better.
If it looks crap, then it is crap.

There's even science to that-

1740451536645.png

And I'm sure someone is going to ask- what's the difference the visually identical European design 1 & 2 - the crossover for the tuning.

Reference:
alternative interpretation adapted from Floyd E. Tool - Sound Reproduction, 3rd Edition, page 33.


If you're going to ask me about the looks of the "classic 3-way speaker", err... let's just say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I am at your service for the design, only. I'll let the interior/industrial designers comment on how to put some lipstick on it..

(on a side note, the whole science of perception applies to a lot of things in life- from fine food to fine wine to "luxury" goods)​
 
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#685
Two tradeoffs we face:
  • Sound quality vs price. We always face this a little no matter the goals, but deliberately focusing on a budget build the price constraint receives more weight than it might otherwise
  • Driver size 4 or 5 inch. I have stated I prefer the aesthetics of a 5 inch driver and I know a few people agreed, but I'm sure many either disagree or don't think the aesthetics matter vs sound quality. The more technical aspect is do we think the wider dispersion of a 4" is an important advantage. A 4" probably also opens up the tweeter choices some.

Below is a summary of many of the drivers discussed. Please copy the list and share your opinions. Feel free to add a driver to the list if you strongly prefer it.

  • SB Acoustics SB15NBAC $80 / €83 --
  • Peerless NE149W-08 $76 / €? --
  • Markaudio CHP-90 $69 / €69 --
  • SB Acoustics SB15NRX2C30-8 $63 / €69 --
  • SB Acoustics SB15MFC30-8 $62 / €69 --
  • SB Acoustics SB12MNRX2-25-04 $61 / €63 -- FOUR INCH MID --
  • Peerless NE123W $60 / €80-90 depending on 4 vs 8 ohm, but are they available in Europe -- FOUR INCH MID --
  • FaitalPRO 5FE120 (Round version 5FE125) $50 / €42 --
  • Peerless HDS 830860 $34 /€55 --
EDIT: it would also be informative if you rearranged the list with you most preferred choice being first
 
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#686
I have added my personal opinion on some.

  • SB Acoustics SB15NBAC $80 / €83 -- Good driver but also the most expensive. Aluminum cone would need a notch. I would pass.
  • Peerless NE149W-08 $76 / €? -- If this can be easily obtained in Europe, it would be my top choice. I emailed Soundimports about availability but haven't heard back.
  • Markaudio CHP-90 $69 / €69 -- I am biased. I recently bought a pair for a different purpose because of high praise regarding sound quality. The uniqueness of using a Markaudio in a 3-way and the appearance of the white cone are appealing to me, but I get that neither of those may be appealing to others.
  • SB Acoustics SB15NRX2C30-8 $63 / €69 -- I know at least two other people brought up this one. I wonder if this is the best overall choice being cheaper than the NE149W but it doesn't receive much discussion because it is a boring pick,
  • SB Acoustics SB15MFC30-8 $62 / €69 -- No one said anything about this one.
  • SB Acoustics SB12MNRX2-25-04 $61 / €63 -- FOUR INCH MID -- Very appealing based on Profiguy's information. Some don’t prefer the look of the four inch. Is the wider dispersion though, a big advantage?
  • Peerless NE123W $60 / €80-90 depending on 4 vs 8 ohm, but are they available in Europe.-- FOUR INCH MID -- Might even be better than the SB12MRNX
  • FaitalPRO 5FE120 (Round version 5FE125) $50 / €42 -- When this was recommended by several people early in the thread, I thought this would be the speaker we would use. It seems we moved towards better quality, but also more expensive, drivers. But I think that is a good move as we should be able to have a really nice speaker that is still a great bargain
  • Peerless HDS 830860 $34 /€55 -- Great price but I don't know as much about this one.
 
#689
That SB12MNRX2 measurement is consistent with this one
Thanks for clarifying.

It's not stellar, by any means, and certainly could be made to sound pleasant. But I'm reminded of a post by @Turbowatch2 , when people get excited about choosing drivers.

Now we have a such a long list of candidates, how are we going to decide which one?
Does someone already have a few/most of these?

Are we going to go on -
Reputation - of company's unit to unit consistency, supply availability
Testimonials- of users who've successfully / unsuccessfully implemented it a loudspeaker design, or liked how to sounded at some space or point in time:
Measurements- by looking at and trying to interpret squiggly lines
Novelty- because we want to try something new. Variety is the spice of life…


Does anyone want to listen to drivers they don’t have?
In a cabinet, with crossovers, using actual music?
 
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#690
A4eaudio said:
SB Acoustics SB15MFC30-8 $62 / €69 -- No one said anything about this one.
Click to expand...
There’s another PP cone on the list, the Peerless HDS. PP cones for some reason have become unpopular the last years (decades?). Which is strange, research decades earlier on cone materials has shown that these plastics have excellent qualities for cones. My humble opinion is that fashion plays a more important role than we often dare to admit. But you only have to remember the quality of older units with these cones, mostly without the optimized motor designs of these days, to know one shouldn’t rule it or other ‘plastics’ out.

Do we have a contender with a woven cone already btw?
 
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#692
A4eaudio said:
Peerless HDS 830860 $34 /€55 -- Great price but I don't know as much about this one.
Click to expand...

I have only experienced a 6.5" PPB with a SS D2606-920000 and a good buddy of mine and myself
worked out together this one. Driver frame has got a nice rounded edge that one does not need to mount
flush. If you do it anyway then there is a part of raw baffle exposed which may not be visually attractive, in this
finish artificial leather has got it covered.

6.5 PPB-1.JPG
 
#693
A4eaudio said:
SB Acoustics SB15MFC30-8 $62 / €69 -- No one said anything about this one.
Click to expand...
I love poly cones. Troels said that this is 80% of Audiotechnology driver in terms of sound. Personally my pick would be Vifa NE123/149, but have not seen them available anywhere in Europe.
The second one in line is SB15MFC. It sounds smooth, can be used from 200 to even 3k (ok, that's maybe with 24db filtering, but still). I would take over paper version due to sound signature.
 
#694
A4eaudio said:
most preferred choice
Click to expand...
Looking at these drivers, they are all nice in different ways. We need clear criteria before we can make some sense with choosing a suitable driver! Assembling a puzzle is very hard if it's unclear how the overall result is going to look like.
Are you ever going to write down the overall design goals in a clear and concise way? If so, please add them to the first post so it's easy to find them. You can also add/modify details as the project evolves.

That said, I'd like to add my few cents:
  • Looks are important. If you want 80s Monkey Coffin, go for it! People will find it a lot easier to pick up a project that looks cool.
  • Ease of build is important if you want many people to build the project. Flush mounting a driver with a funny shape is not easy.
  • Once you narrowed down the list of mid drivers to three or four suitable candidates, pick one with low mechanical losses and low non-linear distortion.
 
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#695
Battle of the 4" midranges:
both US$60: Madisound (SB Acoustics) Parts Express (Faital Pro) or €60 THLP (both)


SB12MNRX2-25-4 @ Hobby Hifi vs Faital Pro 4FE42-8
1740489185827.png








1740486103204.png

for those who value high Qms:
Qms = 4 vs Qms = 8


I would use the SB12MRNX2 from ~200Hz to ~3KHz.
I would use the 4FE42 from ~400Hz to ~4KHz


Final crossover frequencies will depend on in-box measurements and directivity and suitability to the HF and LF units.

 
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#696
markbakk said:
There’s another PP cone on the list, the Peerless HDS. PP cones for some reason have become unpopular the last years (decades?). Which is strange, research decades earlier on cone materials has shown that these plastics have excellent qualities for cones. My humble opinion is that fashion plays a more important role than we often dare to admit. But you only have to remember the quality of older units with these cones, mostly without the optimized motor designs of these days, to know one shouldn’t rule it or other ‘plastics’ out.

Do we have a contender with a woven cone already btw?
Click to expand...
You are rigth, and iirc his THD is the least of the others SB of that range (better than the alum one ?).

Peerless NE149W-08 $76 / 70 euros (Ali. add 17 euros shipping. How much from PE, do they charge the VAT on the driver and shipmment like DHL for instance ? in the scenario of purchase from Europe ?)

The NE149WE being a Revelator like quality, it is also for I the logical choice. It is weird to me we discuss here for a cheap 40 to 50 bucks unit for few saving as it is the most important driver in a 3 ways. Sometimes more expensive is cheaper at the end. I could rephrase it by : I am too poor for spending for bad quality stuff" or " if the driver is less expensive than the passive parts of the filter, does it makes sense anymore ?"; i.e go second hands !

Imo that's on the tweeter you can do some saving ! My personal choice would be the BC25TG-04 with crosssover acoustical >= 3 Khz.
The SB26ADC at the second step or first if the acoustical cross over at >= 1k8 Hz. Third step : SB26STAC for >=2K5 Hz. But the STAC makes the sound somewhat ligther like a ribbon, some migth like it, some others not; the two first are mre forgiving which is imho a quality for a tweeter.

If 75 euros per tweeter is okay in a more expensive scenario, and for the lowers of crystal clear, at 150 bucks for two units the DA25/32TX from peereless are going to pop up again end of march in Europe than in US. Sorta of SB26STAC : clear, but somewhat less fatiguing perhaps and with more details. But huge face plate. Or also at the same price Seas 22TAF/G for crossover >= 3K hz, maybe 2,5 but with LR4 (expensive with parts)

Heissmann acoustic also talked of some cheap combo with commercial WG from Visaton or Monacor, roughly 15 bucks and perhaps distributed in US. It works great with some cheap ring radiator but non only
 
#700
This Peerless 5.25" HDS GFC woofers sounds great, and after checking with customer service at PE, they tell me there's about 60 on the way. The ppb version is on order as well. Future availability is uncertain, but on these two woofers, the 500 minimum will be changed to 60. Possibly other models too. The website will be updated in the next few days. These are just under $40 currently.

So PE only has to order 60 at a time for their stock. We can buy one or two as needed, when they are not out. Their lead times have been five months from Peerless.
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-1074--tymphany-hds-p830991-spec-sheet.pdf
 
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