He was making the general point to go ported rather than sealed as you otherwise "throw away" a lot of low-end extension.
But of course there are some drivers that do go low enough sealed - but harder to find and more expensive.
I did not mention quad woofers. A pair of 8 ohm woofers per box in parallel was inferred.
Just did a dive, and a pair of DSA175-8 in parallel with the PRV 4MR60-4 and any feasible soft dome would be a svelte tower with output and good bass capabilities.
Just did a dive, and a pair of DSA175-8 in parallel with the PRV 4MR60-4 and any feasible soft dome would be a svelte tower with output and good bass capabilities.
@ wolf_teeth. It was the wording that tripped me up. ....woofers can be used in parallel pairs
Didn't think you were talking about 6.5" drivers either.
DSA175-8 Only 67hz f3 ???? That's what the PE page shows.
Didn't think you were talking about 6.5" drivers either.
DSA175-8 Only 67hz f3 ???? That's what the PE page shows.
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I thought it suited classic 3-way just fine. I've seen many like this with a pair of 8" or 10" woofers. Just figured svelte, loud, and low budget applied.
ADS L810 for example. Ultralinear towers had dual 10".
If that is not the direction, then use the Dayton SD270 or SD315 because they are inexpensive, have higher sensitivity, and dig the depths.
However, that 12" is the Pit Viper woofer.
OR- use a pair of the DSA215-8 or DSA270-8 woofers.
ADS L810 for example. Ultralinear towers had dual 10".
If that is not the direction, then use the Dayton SD270 or SD315 because they are inexpensive, have higher sensitivity, and dig the depths.
However, that 12" is the Pit Viper woofer.
OR- use a pair of the DSA215-8 or DSA270-8 woofers.
I'm not sure what kind of look we are going for. The other thread was discussing a boxy stand mount design of maybe 2 cu-ft, or so.
Usually the box is bigger too., if ported.
How big do we want? Is 3.5 cu-ft an option? That's big!
Yeah, one of the things I wanted to ask in the opening post was, "what do we even mean by Classic 3-way/Monkey Coffin"? But I do think that the other thread listed some examples, and I think a driving force in people looking for a budget DIY design is that "nostalgic" 3-way with a big woofer sitting on the floor or a little 6-inch angled stand.
David,
This is a crazy game because if you're going to scrape the bottom of the barrel, you guys in America will win
a) large market share -> competitive market -> large variety of drivers to choose from
b) imported drivers difficult to compete with for locally made products or products made in countries with higher labor costs
But to play along-
1. bass reflex - free bass, thanks to Thiele and Small who first talked about vented enclosures in 1961. We have them to thank, otherwise it would all be trial and error, and life would be like a box of chocolates.
2. cabinets as light as practically possible - why put $15 drivers in a cabinet that weighs almost over close to 100lbs and takes weeks to build?
3. why build a refrigerator sized box if it can't play loud, cleanly?
Here's my selections for a budget 3-way:
A woofer for 75L box with vent tuning 34Hz, after BSC for 88dB@2.83V @100Hz; F6 30Hz:
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-PA310-8-12-Pro-Woofer-295-032?quantity=1
$76
Midrange
4" poly cone midrange
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-PC105-4-4-Full-Range-Poly-Cone-Driver-295-158?quantity=1
$16
Tweeter;
If going to print your own WG, and system sensitivity determine by single 12" ported woofer why chose the XT25BG60- it has a faceplate you'll need to remove, and double magnet for higher sensitivity that you need. Instead, choose the XT25SC40-04
https://www.parts-express.com/Peerl...Radiator-XT-Tweeter-4-Ohm-264-1642?quantity=1
$18
Heck- why bother printing your own WG? Here's something done earlier-
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/275-051--dayton-audio-nd25fw-4-spec-sheet.pdf
18 -> $13
total price = (76 + 16 +13) x2 = $210
All with smooth (enough) response and flat (enough) impedance curves (copper caps on woofer and midrange and neo magnet on tweeter) so should be easy on the number of passive parts.
The POTUS is going to try to change these prices with tariffs... act soon!
(sounds like an advertisement for PE)
This is a crazy game because if you're going to scrape the bottom of the barrel, you guys in America will win
a) large market share -> competitive market -> large variety of drivers to choose from
b) imported drivers difficult to compete with for locally made products or products made in countries with higher labor costs
But to play along-
1. bass reflex - free bass, thanks to Thiele and Small who first talked about vented enclosures in 1961. We have them to thank, otherwise it would all be trial and error, and life would be like a box of chocolates.
2. cabinets as light as practically possible - why put $15 drivers in a cabinet that weighs almost over close to 100lbs and takes weeks to build?
3. why build a refrigerator sized box if it can't play loud, cleanly?
Here's my selections for a budget 3-way:
A woofer for 75L box with vent tuning 34Hz, after BSC for 88dB@2.83V @100Hz; F6 30Hz:
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-PA310-8-12-Pro-Woofer-295-032?quantity=1
$76
Midrange
4" poly cone midrange
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-PC105-4-4-Full-Range-Poly-Cone-Driver-295-158?quantity=1
$16
Tweeter;
If going to print your own WG, and system sensitivity determine by single 12" ported woofer why chose the XT25BG60- it has a faceplate you'll need to remove, and double magnet for higher sensitivity that you need. Instead, choose the XT25SC40-04
https://www.parts-express.com/Peerl...Radiator-XT-Tweeter-4-Ohm-264-1642?quantity=1
$18
Heck- why bother printing your own WG? Here's something done earlier-
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/275-051--dayton-audio-nd25fw-4-spec-sheet.pdf
total price = (76 + 16 +13) x2 = $210
All with smooth (enough) response and flat (enough) impedance curves (copper caps on woofer and midrange and neo magnet on tweeter) so should be easy on the number of passive parts.
The POTUS is going to try to change these prices with tariffs... act soon!
(sounds like an advertisement for PE)
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This is an inexpensive, sealed, 42L, classic monkey coffin, speaker I've been contemplating. Unfortunately the crossover got away from me and ... well ... it stopped being inexpensive.
In Oz, what about something from SB Acoustics: SB20pfc 8" woofer (2xA$60); SB12pfc mid (2x $40) and SB19 tweeter (2x $32), similar to a project envisaged by Ralf Giralfino on this Forum. No idea how to design the crossover of course, but I really like the pfc drivers even if the frame shape's a pain.
Geoff
Geoff
We can design more than one speaker here. We just need to know what YOU want to make.
You give me an frd, I'll sim a x-over for you. You want to port a 4 cu-ft box, there's a dozen guys to optimize it.
I'm not building this myself, but If I have the drivers, I can measure them.
It's hard to know what's wanted. My sat / sub system will play rock nicely at about 95dB in room. It's rare that I play that loud.
You give me an frd, I'll sim a x-over for you. You want to port a 4 cu-ft box, there's a dozen guys to optimize it.
I'm not building this myself, but If I have the drivers, I can measure them.
It's hard to know what's wanted. My sat / sub system will play rock nicely at about 95dB in room. It's rare that I play that loud.
My examples were just me, browsing Parts Express, coming up with ideas that I might actually build - and being more budget friendly than the design being contemplated in the other thread.
That was partly because that thread was getting into $1,000 for drivers for the pair. In all fairness, that price range is still budget compared to what you could easily do with top tier drivers - and I don't even mean Revelators, Purifi, etc. I think the SB34NRX drivers being proposed on that thread are easily budget drivers compared to a LOT of other 12" drivers. On the other hand, they don't seem budget if you are looking at $40 GRS woofers.
Rather than your "play along" build, which I know you were trying to really minimize cost, what would YOU build for yourself, but still be able to call it "budget"?
Perfectly fair point. I have actually used the XT25SC40-04 in a Visaton 148 WG, so that is one reason to do something different. The real dilemma I had when even typing it out, was why not the single-magnet XT25TG30-04? The reason was that the BG60 has lower distortion and is only $2 more. If the single-magnet version was $10 cheaper I'd for sure choose it.
I have no inside information, but I have wondered if this is why they brought back a lot of the NLA Peerless drivers. Buy that Minimum Order Quantity of 300-500 drivers and get them off the boat before the tariffs go into effect.
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The Peerless SBS 12", 10", and 8" are all viable high value woofers that can reach high enough freq. in a 3 way. >11mm Xmax on the bigger ones. Didn't check the 8, but it gets <50 Hz in a sealed 1cf box which means 2 would do well in a 2cf sealed box.
Budget to me also means typically smaller rooms and placement closer to the wall, which suits sealed bass way better.
The 10 & 12 SLS want bigger volumes for sealed and don't go much lower than the 8 in sealed, but still, not more than 2.5cf. Room gain will help all the SLS in sealed.
The Peerless NE 5 or 6.5" drivers, if PE is bringing them back, are great performers for mids esp at their previous prices.
And @tktran303 is right re bare tweeter if printing WG.
RS262hf is great for bass in a small sealed volume (1~1.5cf is fine). A bit pricey but tough to beat at any price for deep bass from a small box.
Budget to me also means typically smaller rooms and placement closer to the wall, which suits sealed bass way better.
The 10 & 12 SLS want bigger volumes for sealed and don't go much lower than the 8 in sealed, but still, not more than 2.5cf. Room gain will help all the SLS in sealed.
The Peerless NE 5 or 6.5" drivers, if PE is bringing them back, are great performers for mids esp at their previous prices.
And @tktran303 is right re bare tweeter if printing WG.
RS262hf is great for bass in a small sealed volume (1~1.5cf is fine). A bit pricey but tough to beat at any price for deep bass from a small box.
How low budget is "low budget"? I've noticed, in this game we play here, it can vary from aliexpress $5 drivers all the way to using only $500+ drivers.
From what I've seen I think my TV 3 ways are pretty low budget. You've seen this build and you helped me with it. It has FAR exceeded my expectations.
Hivi RT1.3WE Iso Tweeter $34
Zaph Audio ZA14W08 Mid $55
Then I used a 10" Peerless 860668 Woofer $60
Would I do it again I would use the 12" version of that driver
The cheapest thing I ever made was for the lake house. Not so simple series 2 way, second order XO. Silver Flute 6.5 and Peerless Tweeter DX20BF00-04
The entire thing cost me about $150. 90 DB sensitivity. Not a single resistor in the XO. I feel like you could make another version of this for very little extra if you used the silver flute 5.5 and some kind of GRS large diameter woofer.
I believe this answers your last question (I know it was a joke) of whether or not you can have a cheap 2 way cover the entire spectrum and play loud. And play off axis with very little drop off. Blue line there is 90 degree of axis.
Measurements:
From what I've seen I think my TV 3 ways are pretty low budget. You've seen this build and you helped me with it. It has FAR exceeded my expectations.
Hivi RT1.3WE Iso Tweeter $34
Zaph Audio ZA14W08 Mid $55
Then I used a 10" Peerless 860668 Woofer $60
Would I do it again I would use the 12" version of that driver
The cheapest thing I ever made was for the lake house. Not so simple series 2 way, second order XO. Silver Flute 6.5 and Peerless Tweeter DX20BF00-04
The entire thing cost me about $150. 90 DB sensitivity. Not a single resistor in the XO. I feel like you could make another version of this for very little extra if you used the silver flute 5.5 and some kind of GRS large diameter woofer.
I believe this answers your last question (I know it was a joke) of whether or not you can have a cheap 2 way cover the entire spectrum and play loud. And play off axis with very little drop off. Blue line there is 90 degree of axis.
Measurements:
We need to look at drivers that are cheap everywhere. Dayton drivers are not cheap in Europe, Peerless or Faital is often cheaper. That Dauyton DSA315 woofer mentoned is about 170€ in Europe, that is to expensive to be called cheap i think. The Faital 12FE330 is at least 50€ cheaper (120€), and the Peerless SLS-P830669 cost 100€. Idem for mid and tweeter. The SB26ADC (and some other SB tweeters) are cheaper here than that Dayton mentioned, and a lot better. Idem for some Peerless tweeters.
You could make a design proposal for each of the builders residence areas, optimized for lower costs.
What drivers would you pick? We can look at any potential issues, or improvements. Start with what's available to you, and how big of a box you think would be suitable where you are.
For box sizes, I think of 45L as a medium size, and 65L as a large. We can design for any size.
For bass extension. How low is enough? Would you like an f3 lower than 50hz? Lower than 40hz?
Maximum power handling. In the 30w to 100w range, what would you think is practical. As mentioned, my RS100p design would probably get fried.
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