Okay, this is your expert point of view and I respect it.
My non-expert point of view is that a manufacturer has a reputation that I believe he wants to preserve and I like to know about him himself his answers.
They could be surprising, at least to me. 🙂
I realize the point of view of an expert who builds his own devices, but here we are talking about a pair 50W mono power amps on 8 Ohm that cost 600 bucks with apparently great performance.
However, I already guessed that some might consider them just as junk.
Anyway, I respect other people's thoughts while I don't believe in unique-mindedness. 😉
@Bonsai & @trung224 - I can say with a high likelihood that "as-advertised" if a US brick and mortar store sold these, that the company selling them (and likely the importer of record if not the retailer) would likely be in violation of 16CFR. It seems the EU has a set of standards that also would not be met (possibly).
What I'm curious about is what I've asked, but has yet to be answered. Are you two thinking it's truly a bad design or are you just upset that Topping and others seem to call it a "100W" amplifier or an "83W" amplifier.
If they called it the B8 and changed the published specs using whatever methodologies you think are most appropriate, and it met an 8W continuous output, would you care so much?
i.e. are you upset that they gamed a set of measurements you don't agree with AND/OR do you think it's a bad design? It sounds like you may be more upset with ASR's measurement protocol than the amp.
Engineers design into specs / cost. If the boss says to design an amp to be the best in this "spec", and they achieved that goal - then by definition it's not a bad design or bad engineering. You just seem to disagree with the goal, but you call the amp "bad".
What am I missing?
What I'm curious about is what I've asked, but has yet to be answered. Are you two thinking it's truly a bad design or are you just upset that Topping and others seem to call it a "100W" amplifier or an "83W" amplifier.
If they called it the B8 and changed the published specs using whatever methodologies you think are most appropriate, and it met an 8W continuous output, would you care so much?
i.e. are you upset that they gamed a set of measurements you don't agree with AND/OR do you think it's a bad design? It sounds like you may be more upset with ASR's measurement protocol than the amp.
Engineers design into specs / cost. If the boss says to design an amp to be the best in this "spec", and they achieved that goal - then by definition it's not a bad design or bad engineering. You just seem to disagree with the goal, but you call the amp "bad".
What am I missing?
That is not 50W/8 Ohms mono amp. It can only withstand 50W at most 1s, not continuous and for EU and US standard can not be called 50W/8Ohms amps.
And an amplifier which can go to protection mode many times with music program on fairly standard speakers (2-way speaker) is not great performing amps, since it does not perform at all at those case.
By your standards
Who mentioned distortion? YOU keep bringing up distortion.
Let me ask this a simpler way in case I'm typing too much. At what wattage level would you consider these amplifiers? Let's call that the new power rating for the BXXX?
If the BXXX were advertised at whatever wattage rating you think appropriate / would you consider it a poor performing amplifier?
@ItsAllInMyHead :
My criticism is very simple. Manufacturer must be transparent and honest about technical specifications of products. If there is standard in the market it sells to, it must be followed and stated. Because following defined standard, in those case IEC 60268-3 (for EU) or FTC (for US), is an only way the customer can have enough information to choose. If Topping measures this amp following those standard and stated in manual that it is 20W/ 8 Ohms and 35W/ 4 Ohms for example then I have no problem with this amp.
What I am upset is the minions in ASR who mindlessly follow the ******** SINAD 5W 1kHz specs on ASR as a sole specs to rate amplifier spreads this kind of fault "science" to the internet. Just like when they use the "Harman preference score" to rate the speaker to the point that one of its inventor Sean Olive need to come out to ask them not to do so since it is not created for this purpose 😆 And now we have the consequence that manufacturers now create the amplifier just to pass the ASR standard. And B100 is a perfect example of that.
Sean Olive said:
You shouldn't focus on preference scores. It was only intended to help naive people interpret spinorama measurements and reduce it to a single number.
My criticism is very simple. Manufacturer must be transparent and honest about technical specifications of products. If there is standard in the market it sells to, it must be followed and stated. Because following defined standard, in those case IEC 60268-3 (for EU) or FTC (for US), is an only way the customer can have enough information to choose. If Topping measures this amp following those standard and stated in manual that it is 20W/ 8 Ohms and 35W/ 4 Ohms for example then I have no problem with this amp.
What I am upset is the minions in ASR who mindlessly follow the ******** SINAD 5W 1kHz specs on ASR as a sole specs to rate amplifier spreads this kind of fault "science" to the internet. Just like when they use the "Harman preference score" to rate the speaker to the point that one of its inventor Sean Olive need to come out to ask them not to do so since it is not created for this purpose 😆 And now we have the consequence that manufacturers now create the amplifier just to pass the ASR standard. And B100 is a perfect example of that.
Sean Olive said:
You shouldn't focus on preference scores. It was only intended to help naive people interpret spinorama measurements and reduce it to a single number.
Correct me if I am wrong but if these measurements were made with 200-800ms bursts of drive signals that I saw in some earlier posts then I am absolutely appalled 😨
@trung224 - wonderfully said. 100% aligned. We seem to be focusing on the amplifiers, which are designed to a certain spec / focus / customer. What seems to be the heart of the 'issue' is a "standard" from ASR / Topping that does not include relevant measurement protocols from either the EU or the USA for power rating.
If this was touted as a 5W amplifier, I think everyone would just say... "Oh, OK". That's a guess... but...
If this was touted as a 5W amplifier, I think everyone would just say... "Oh, OK". That's a guess... but...
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The last thing we should want here is ASR type evaluation of amplifier performance and the adulation of low distortion. Don’t bring that nonsense here. I say the same for 20 Watt, 10% distortion $19 000 ‘product of the year’ amplifiers feted by a certain audio magazine that’s sold its soul to its advertisers.
When you come out with your evaluation protocol, we'll take a look. Until then, keep shouting at clouds.
Here's an evaluation protocol, and I'd be surprised if those at ASR haven't heard of anything the FTC has been doing over the last half century. I read about the 1974 report when I was in high school, I forget if it was some stereo magazine or Popular Mechanics. It was the source of the infamous "watts RMS" that they've since corrected.
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...for-amplifiers-utilized-in-home-entertainment
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...for-amplifiers-utilized-in-home-entertainment
What I can say is the following, for what it's worth.
First of all, it doesn't seem to me that anyone is defending anything or anyone, but rather that someone is accusing someone or something else.
Let's be clear, no problem here, but don't say that someone is defending anyone, please, we are comparing our way of thinking and our ideas that let's not forget come also and above all from our past experiences and our current position.
What amazes me is the refusal to debate, I don't say with me, with whom it isn't worth much at least on a technical level, but at least with the manufacturer, since no one seems interested in listening to it.
It also seems that from this manufacturer they want absolute honesty that no manufacturer in the world, I guess, really shows, except for the due and demonstrated exceptions.
We, as far as I know, don't even seem to be certain about the amplifier's operating class, of course everyone says their own, but no one is really sure.
Also, it seems that ASR has suddenly become the needle of the scale of the audio world, but I don't think that's really the case, this fact is in the collective imagination here, not in reality.
There are other ways to choose your audio gear, in my view, and there's a lot to read out there besides ASR.
If I remember correctly there is a proprietary chip inside the amp that little or nothing is known about, and maybe not even the manufacturer himself wants to stick his neck out.
I believe that the final test is that of the ears of those who first bought it and then inserted it into their system and finally listened to it, anyway.
Peace and Love. ☕
First of all, it doesn't seem to me that anyone is defending anything or anyone, but rather that someone is accusing someone or something else.
Let's be clear, no problem here, but don't say that someone is defending anyone, please, we are comparing our way of thinking and our ideas that let's not forget come also and above all from our past experiences and our current position.
What amazes me is the refusal to debate, I don't say with me, with whom it isn't worth much at least on a technical level, but at least with the manufacturer, since no one seems interested in listening to it.
It also seems that from this manufacturer they want absolute honesty that no manufacturer in the world, I guess, really shows, except for the due and demonstrated exceptions.
We, as far as I know, don't even seem to be certain about the amplifier's operating class, of course everyone says their own, but no one is really sure.
Also, it seems that ASR has suddenly become the needle of the scale of the audio world, but I don't think that's really the case, this fact is in the collective imagination here, not in reality.
There are other ways to choose your audio gear, in my view, and there's a lot to read out there besides ASR.
If I remember correctly there is a proprietary chip inside the amp that little or nothing is known about, and maybe not even the manufacturer himself wants to stick his neck out.
I believe that the final test is that of the ears of those who first bought it and then inserted it into their system and finally listened to it, anyway.
Peace and Love. ☕
The Topping performance shortfalls are there for all to see because they’ve focussed on a very narrow set of performance paramters. I struggle to see what there is to discuss or to debate.
Any website that pitches a B100 as a better amplifier than an AB2 (and others) is not the ‘needle’ of the audio world. It’s just more objectivist fantasy.
Any website that pitches a B100 as a better amplifier than an AB2 (and others) is not the ‘needle’ of the audio world. It’s just more objectivist fantasy.
No website is anyway, that's my point.
Whether it says B100 is better or worse, it doesn't matter.
As I've been saying for a while, the point of view of a simple buyer is different from the point of view of a manufacturer.
You said it really well 👍 and it wasn't easy to say since I was just about to say that if even measurements are not enough to identify the good device and so the good sound, then...
People fixated at just one number (SINAD) are not really objectivists.
20 cycle burst (20ms duration
Firstly, manufacturer is the one must come out to clarify, not customers. Because problem is on their product. And until now they choose to remain silent, not only here but also on ASR, which in my POV one of their main advertisement source.
Secondly, there are a distinction between marketing buzzword and misleading in specs. Marketing buzzword like better high, sweet, powerful, smooth, .etc is just flowery language, cannot be measured. Meanwhile specifications is technical number, can be measured and must be demonstrated as such according to the rules/standard of the market the products sell to. That is the matter of customer protection's law.
Thirdly, "I believe that the final test is that of the ears of those who first bought it and then inserted it into their system and finally listened to it, anyway." Then we must be silent about this issue and let customer suffered by this misleading specs and waste money on doing so. What is nonsense. I must remind you, the problem here is not the sound. The matter here is the amps go to protection mode, aka it does not output sound.
Sorry but many of your word is nonsense.
Firstly, manufacturer is the one must come out to clarify, not customers. Because problem is on their product. And until now they choose to remain silent, not only here but also on ASR, which in my POV one of their main advertisement source.
Secondly, there are a distinction between marketing buzzword and misleading in specs. Marketing buzzword like better high, sweet, powerful, smooth, .etc is just flowery language, cannot be measured. Meanwhile specifications is technical number, can be measured and must be demonstrated as such according to the rules/standard of the market the products sell to. That is the matter of customer protection's law.
Thirdly, "I believe that the final test is that of the ears of those who first bought it and then inserted it into their system and finally listened to it, anyway." Then we must be silent about this issue and let customer suffered by this misleading specs and waste money on doing so. What is nonsense. I must remind you, the problem here is not the sound. The matter here is the amps go to protection mode, aka it does not output sound.
Hi guys
As you know me a bit i am not an expert but i have done my experience.
i fully agree with Bonsai and trung224.
toy amp
I do not "believe" ASR with one test setup (SINAD) that this amplifier is better then others. i am in level 20 of knowledge and experience of building amps and measure it. most of the guys i feel they have level 1000 😉
but i "know" that physic is real and cannot be bi-passed with "nice" measurements of small burst to be "happy" and show it at ASR.
as a telecommuncation engineer, rail project manager and diy noob i "know" that phase shift (L or C) can be very stressful for signals and amps and that makes it "useful" to have a reserve in any kind of way (power) to be stable and useful.
do not forget---> it is marketing to set the test setup to be in a popular forum the best or better then other amps. for me absolute nonsense and a no go for me as an engineer!
PS: trung224
ACA premium is a better toy amp then you expected😉😎😉
kr
chris
As you know me a bit i am not an expert but i have done my experience.
i fully agree with Bonsai and trung224.
toy amp
I do not "believe" ASR with one test setup (SINAD) that this amplifier is better then others. i am in level 20 of knowledge and experience of building amps and measure it. most of the guys i feel they have level 1000 😉
but i "know" that physic is real and cannot be bi-passed with "nice" measurements of small burst to be "happy" and show it at ASR.
as a telecommuncation engineer, rail project manager and diy noob i "know" that phase shift (L or C) can be very stressful for signals and amps and that makes it "useful" to have a reserve in any kind of way (power) to be stable and useful.
do not forget---> it is marketing to set the test setup to be in a popular forum the best or better then other amps. for me absolute nonsense and a no go for me as an engineer!
PS: trung224
ACA premium is a better toy amp then you expected😉😎😉
kr
chris
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No problem about what your opinions are. 🙂
However, I noticed that the thread is taking the usual turn, that is, the sterile and useless debate between objectivism and subjectivism.
And yet it seems absurd, but an amp can be measured and listened to and it is obvious that it is bought to be listened to, so if you see nonsense outside of yourself maybe you should think twice before attributing it to others.
I don't think I was the first to talk about listening, but even if I had been I don't see what's strange about it, so please be less polemical.
Thanks.
Furthermore, what you called nonsense I would have called possible misunderstanding, because the easiest thing that happens in human communication is misunderstanding, even more so if in writing and in a non-native language,
Anyway...
This seems to me a real nonsense since you are the one judging the product.
For the same reason I suggested contacting the manufacturer before he is convicted by this "court" in absentia.
This would obviously potentially serve to learn something more about that amp rather than assuming. 😉
I think this has been discussed billions of times on this forum, I've had enough.
Really?
Ask for that to the majority of manufacturer, please. 😀
It seems to me like you only want to discredit Topping, not reach any truth, other than your own assumptions. 🙄
In fact, those who have it say that it sounds great.
You're making this up, nobody said to keep quiet, least of all me who wants to ask Topping instead.
The point here is that there is a reliable and helpful member who bought it and decided to keep it despite some issues.
You seem jumping to conclusions on your own, and I've already stated my opinions.
For me it is enough.
No one is defending anyone here, just trying to learn something new.
Just as new is the chip inside the B100.
And just as not all students are the same, well not all teachers are the same either.
You talk and talk and say you would like to know more about B100, but it seems like you haven't even bothered to go and read some information about it. 😉