Internal PSUs are a blessing not a curse. One can only hope they were designed for longevity when they are SMPS. You sure won't see a linear one dying on you within the first 10 years. The linear ones are now seen as inferior/unusual/old fashioned but truth is different. Their drawbacks are definitely not on the quality side of things.
The trend is to use external PSUs for low cost, low weight, certification blah blah and to evade responsibility (just look at the number of safety stamps) but they cause ugliness on the floor, attract dust and dirt and are sometimes true EMI transmitters. Bah. Mains cables can be organized so that they don't even touch the floor. Big plus.
It may go unnoticed but if persons like noise and distortion advising even better stuff works counterproductive! Having better measuring/performing stuff is not what they want, it is what they say they want. It is also what the majority of audio people want and advise. This may lead to frustration. Dealt with this many times and cheap stuff (not best-of-class) is often highly appraised. For some reason the pattern is that Bluesound stuff is liked in such cases. The WiiM Ultra might just be what the doctor ordered.
The trend is to use external PSUs for low cost, low weight, certification blah blah and to evade responsibility (just look at the number of safety stamps) but they cause ugliness on the floor, attract dust and dirt and are sometimes true EMI transmitters. Bah. Mains cables can be organized so that they don't even touch the floor. Big plus.
It may go unnoticed but if persons like noise and distortion advising even better stuff works counterproductive! Having better measuring/performing stuff is not what they want, it is what they say they want. It is also what the majority of audio people want and advise. This may lead to frustration. Dealt with this many times and cheap stuff (not best-of-class) is often highly appraised. For some reason the pattern is that Bluesound stuff is liked in such cases. The WiiM Ultra might just be what the doctor ordered.
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Or of course the usual oddball stuff like 8V rms output tube DACs overdriving amplifiers, non OS DACs etc. Anything irregular with non stellar performance.
Some sounds are hard to reproduce well. Cymbals used in rock and jazz can be hard to reproduce realistically. On some dacs they sound like bursts of noise and or all sound nearly the same. Subtle stick attack details may be lost. Also, bass guitar and bass drums may not always sound clearly distinct from each other. There may be more similarity to their sounds than exists in the real instruments. Some of those problems, especially accurate reproduction of distinct LF sounds can be due to the speakers. People doing near field mixing with ported speakers sometimes stuff the ports with some damping material to tighten up the bass sound. Then it can be easier to judge the dac's LF sound.
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A while ago I bought a "FiiO D03K Taishan" DAC for less than 20€. It was just meant to adapt a new TV to an old amp, using the Toslink.
Of course I tried it with a quite good CD player to compare the basic quality. I expected it to sound what it was: cheap. The result was that both sounded quite identical. I was really surprised and dug out a really cheap CD-player (I think I got about 10 in storage) and could verify that it really lifted the sound quality of the cheap CD when used on it's coax out. For convenience I powered the "FiiO" with a power bank I may add, not with a mains connected USB wall wart.
So is this an excelent DAC? I don't know. But for less than 20€ it may improve some not so good sounding gear with a digital out. At least into a neutral sounding one without flaws. And cheap it is.
Of course I tried it with a quite good CD player to compare the basic quality. I expected it to sound what it was: cheap. The result was that both sounded quite identical. I was really surprised and dug out a really cheap CD-player (I think I got about 10 in storage) and could verify that it really lifted the sound quality of the cheap CD when used on it's coax out. For convenience I powered the "FiiO" with a power bank I may add, not with a mains connected USB wall wart.
So is this an excelent DAC? I don't know. But for less than 20€ it may improve some not so good sounding gear with a digital out. At least into a neutral sounding one without flaws. And cheap it is.
Okay. What amp, what speakers, what cables, what power conditioner, how are speakers positioned, how is the room treated, etc.?
Point is that, given enough non-idealities in a system, almost nothing will sound much different even if something really good is plugged into that system.
Unfortunately people often tend to take great offense if it is suggested that their system might not be as good as they want to believe, and or maybe their listening skills aren't quite as good as trained and practiced as they could be. Therefore, different opinions on what is audible or audibly different may be quite true for a particular situation. For example, I know my laptop dac with a $20 pair of Amazon headphones is not as resolving as the big system with the electrostatic speakers. Some things are only audibly different on the latter system. Totally different listening experience for pretty much anyone, so far at least.
Coincidentally I know that FiiO D03K Taishan and it was then simply worth every penny. Not high end but certainly usable despite CS8416.
I recall there were a few versions of it.
I recall there were a few versions of it.
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Nothing more was what I said.
I do not know what an "excellent-inexpensive-Chinese -DAC" is supposed to be. This thing sounds transparent, is cheap and comes from China.
So I thought it was worth mentioning it. I never claimed it to be High End. Anyway, I expect transparentcy from a DAC, not huge differences in sound.
My listening gear is good enough to show variances in CD players quite well. I can clearly spot a bad one with it and one that I consider good. So if the FiiO would do something wrong, I think I would have spoted that.
The FiiO in its construction is the opposite of a complicated high end component graveyard. So some may not take it serious. I didn't expect any miracle sound from it and was just positively surprised. In fact I thought it would sound much worse, but good enough to make the bridge from a new TV to an old amp. Just to have a little better TV sound than this flat screen screams out.
Of course curiosity made me try it in comparison to more expensive stuff. At 20€ anything else I have is more expensive... I have other DAC's, but for the TV connection it seemed to be the right size, as it is only as big as a matchbox.
The DAC chip was not expensive, but quite advanced, with reclocking and 192kHz, so maybe not the worst one you could have used for a product that cheap.
I do not know what an "excellent-inexpensive-Chinese -DAC" is supposed to be. This thing sounds transparent, is cheap and comes from China.
So I thought it was worth mentioning it. I never claimed it to be High End. Anyway, I expect transparentcy from a DAC, not huge differences in sound.
My listening gear is good enough to show variances in CD players quite well. I can clearly spot a bad one with it and one that I consider good. So if the FiiO would do something wrong, I think I would have spoted that.
The FiiO in its construction is the opposite of a complicated high end component graveyard. So some may not take it serious. I didn't expect any miracle sound from it and was just positively surprised. In fact I thought it would sound much worse, but good enough to make the bridge from a new TV to an old amp. Just to have a little better TV sound than this flat screen screams out.
Of course curiosity made me try it in comparison to more expensive stuff. At 20€ anything else I have is more expensive... I have other DAC's, but for the TV connection it seemed to be the right size, as it is only as big as a matchbox.
The DAC chip was not expensive, but quite advanced, with reclocking and 192kHz, so maybe not the worst one you could have used for a product that cheap.
That is largely subjective … what is world class to one person may be trash to another. I agree that a SINAD doesn’t guarantee good sound quality, but it is an objective figure of merit and a place to start. Unless you like high distortion.
Easy to try out cheap gear too … I’ve found some real gems out there.
I’ve had some esoteric gear too … some I loved and some I couldn’t stand despite rave reviews.
... no money, no honey...
Excellent and inexpensive... interesting.... see the above
Chinese vs Western... do we still believe that Chinese stuff is inferior to Western...? Ouch!
You could try to get a DAC with low-noise supplies, paying close attention to voltage regulation and noise at every single Vcc/Vee pin/node, an isolated USB input interface/card/section, and a great spec clock PLL section, but that will cost you.
Then, if you know what to look for, you may see a unit that has it all (of the above) and uses the components that sound "good", to your liking... while still showing great measured specs... and still providing a great output stage. But, now we are in a 10k territory...
Then you have to feed the beast... and that's a completely separate can of worms.
Excellent and inexpensive... interesting.... see the above
Chinese vs Western... do we still believe that Chinese stuff is inferior to Western...? Ouch!
You could try to get a DAC with low-noise supplies, paying close attention to voltage regulation and noise at every single Vcc/Vee pin/node, an isolated USB input interface/card/section, and a great spec clock PLL section, but that will cost you.
Then, if you know what to look for, you may see a unit that has it all (of the above) and uses the components that sound "good", to your liking... while still showing great measured specs... and still providing a great output stage. But, now we are in a 10k territory...
Then you have to feed the beast... and that's a completely separate can of worms.
There are not many well done internal PSUs that's why I like external ones. I prefer to keep mains power as far away from my components as possible. Actually I regard anything that alternates be it in the low or high frequency range as possible cause for loss of low level details. Wherever it's feasible namely low consumption components I prefer Lifepo4 batteries.
That's the fun of diy audio everything can be done.
Btw. You've got mail.
Gustard A26 is a good DAC for a reasonable amount of money that measures well and sounds great. Anything below that level of standard and sound would be unacceptable. The sound would be subpar to the extent of being unlistenable in a revealing system.
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The point being that cost has become too much of a factor making both internal and external PSUs today often not as desired. This can be seen when comparing to bog standard industrial linear PSUs from the eighties/nineties that easily outperform the vast majority of todays switchers.
True craftmanship is DIYing a very good internal PSU without costcutting or drawbacks. The benefits and the DIY part by reverse engineering and making stuff right, adequately shielded and fitting mechanically. Quite rewarding but much work. An art IMHO, not the fast & easy way out.
After having seen the battery mountains in China I refuse to use batteries. My audio should not be more of a burden to the environment than strictly necessary. Besides that their longevity is not optimal just like their reliability. Enough “charging trauma” from the smart phone.
True craftmanship is DIYing a very good internal PSU without costcutting or drawbacks. The benefits and the DIY part by reverse engineering and making stuff right, adequately shielded and fitting mechanically. Quite rewarding but much work. An art IMHO, not the fast & easy way out.
After having seen the battery mountains in China I refuse to use batteries. My audio should not be more of a burden to the environment than strictly necessary. Besides that their longevity is not optimal just like their reliability. Enough “charging trauma” from the smart phone.
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Why do you ask? Here we build our own DACs as it is a DIY site and not a consumer product advice front desk ;-)
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WRONG
You keep repeating that but when "total DIY" is 4 x the cost why bother? Also other sectors here are either about ready made or kit stuff assembled as GB.
True "total DIY" days are over for most as it is just not that worthwhile in many cases as very affordable just good stuff can be found for way less. Accept it. Also there is AFAIK no rule against advice what and what not buy. In fact I as a member think that is a very good thing.
You keep repeating that but when "total DIY" is 4 x the cost why bother? Also other sectors here are either about ready made or kit stuff assembled as GB.
True "total DIY" days are over for most as it is just not that worthwhile in many cases as very affordable just good stuff can be found for way less. Accept it. Also there is AFAIK no rule against advice what and what not buy. In fact I as a member think that is a very good thing.
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Quote from forum rules:
diyAudio is a place for all members of the DIY audio community to learn, share knowledge, and enjoy interacting with others interested in the design and construction of audio components.
diyAudio is a place for all members of the DIY audio community to learn, share knowledge, and enjoy interacting with others interested in the design and construction of audio components.
Exactly that sums it up. Interested in the design and construction, share knowledge, interacting with others. In the broad sense. To give eachother tips what equipment is OK. What audio player is good and built OK. To share own designs for others to reproduce too. There is a focus shift noticable as many lack the time, knowledge, tools, have difficulties to find the often obsolete or non available parts and the motivation to spend much time and a multiple of the cost combined with the risk it just does not perform as intended. AFAIK there are zero (0) true DIY audio players. None.
If it is against the rules to discuss stuff that is not or only partly DIY then please tell me. It isn’t.
IMHO the survival of full DIY will be complete and tested kits including PCBs as Group Buys like many Pass devices and of course as found in the diyaudio.com store. Since only a handful are offered in the audio player and DAC sector it is only logic ready made stuff is bought. Those that object could put their energy in such a DIY project and share their knowledge in that true DIY spirit.
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Sometimes I see sentiments that someone is not "DIYing enough" and I always think of a quote I once heard, attributed to Carl Sagan who said:
This quote is very applicable to the "DIY" spirit. How? Well, at some point in order to DIY ourselves something we are buying pre-made parts or things. We are not casting our own resistors, making our own capacitors, etc. Loudspeaker DIYers are likely not building their own drivers from scratch by winding voice coils, and pressing their own diaphragms. Would you DIY-shame someone if their project included an integrated circuit? What about if they bought instead of made their own power supply. Chassis? Where do you differentiate DIYing from just plug and play? It's not all that clear, really.
As someone who likes to build active loudspeakers and who uses computers and software to implement the crossover, I use a mix of buying commercial gear and parts and designing/building: I buy ready to run amplifiers and DACs or audio interfaces. I buy computers but do a lot of OS and C++ programming to create the magic at line level and in software happen. I physically build the speaker but then install drivers that I buy. I do all the design and measurement work myself, never using a "kit" or plans from someone else. So am I enough of a DIYer for this site?
I dont think this sub discussion is about using an IC but rather discussing ready made off the web commercial products...
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That's only a difference of degree, not of concept.
As DIYers we will at some level make use of parts or things that are already functioning. They accomplish some aspect of the greater overall project that we cannot or do not wish to create ourselves - we did not "make" or "design" them. The DIY process is only to add something more to it in order to create a new thing that is greater than the sum of the parts, but the parts do not need to be indivisible.
The way I see it, an IC like an op-amp is not unlike a DAC. You add power, provide input, and get output from each one of them. Both of them are "commercial products".
As DIYers we will at some level make use of parts or things that are already functioning. They accomplish some aspect of the greater overall project that we cannot or do not wish to create ourselves - we did not "make" or "design" them. The DIY process is only to add something more to it in order to create a new thing that is greater than the sum of the parts, but the parts do not need to be indivisible.
The way I see it, an IC like an op-amp is not unlike a DAC. You add power, provide input, and get output from each one of them. Both of them are "commercial products".
There are 0 real DIY audio players. What is available are clickable PCBs like RPi. No one objects. Practically everyone buys one ready made and possibly a diyaudio.com external DIY project DAC (WHICH ONE?) or ChiFi DAC is added. That is what digital audio is to the majority. Of that majority again a majority is not able to master the complexity to design and build a digital source or a DAC. It is that simple. Anyone can solder a 5 transistor amplifier and click in the plug of a ready made SMPS.
It is a non-discussion really. Build what you can and want to build and otherwise just don’t. Certainly not force others to do what you think they should do in an already diminishing hobby.
The various repair threads are also not DIY but “I buy something defective and want you to tell me how to repair it” threads. The previews on new ready made Pass stuff. The music threads. Also verboten?
It is a non-discussion really. Build what you can and want to build and otherwise just don’t. Certainly not force others to do what you think they should do in an already diminishing hobby.
The various repair threads are also not DIY but “I buy something defective and want you to tell me how to repair it” threads. The previews on new ready made Pass stuff. The music threads. Also verboten?
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