Historically, around here we were supposed to use a manual of style.
https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/book/ed18/frontmatter/toc.html
https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/book/ed18/frontmatter/toc.html
The composition courses that I was obliged to take for undergraduate degree showed me (quite unexpectedly) that I already possessed the needed skills, that I really didn't have to do much to get an "A" other than just sitting down and writing. I was very surprised since I believed my writing skills at the time were very subpar (...and they still are as compared to writers like Hemingway, who wrote with apparent ease--like flowing water). I couldn't believe how low the bar seemed to be.
But I also found that inarticulate speaking/writing by others was always a turn-off.
Spelling is easily fixed nowadays via machine as you type. And anyone nowadays that wants to learn and has a web connection or smartphone can learn to improve their basic writing skills. All you have to turn your thoughts into better English is to use LLMs (like ChatGPT) to redo your drafts until you achieve what you want to convey to your readers. LLMs are actually tireless and almost perfect copyeditors (without cost) to help you learn what you need to know.
I also believe that it doesn't take very long to figure out how to stop using those crutches and to begin do it right to begin with. All it takes nowadays is the will to learn.
Chris
But I also found that inarticulate speaking/writing by others was always a turn-off.
Spelling is easily fixed nowadays via machine as you type. And anyone nowadays that wants to learn and has a web connection or smartphone can learn to improve their basic writing skills. All you have to turn your thoughts into better English is to use LLMs (like ChatGPT) to redo your drafts until you achieve what you want to convey to your readers. LLMs are actually tireless and almost perfect copyeditors (without cost) to help you learn what you need to know.
I also believe that it doesn't take very long to figure out how to stop using those crutches and to begin do it right to begin with. All it takes nowadays is the will to learn.
Chris
In the old times we'd start with an outline... thesis sentence... follow with topic sentences for each paragraph and a conclusion. Then keep working the outlines to add facts to the paragraphs.
The hardest thing, to me, was the introduction: How do you flow from nowhere to present the thesis?
At some point, writing becomes automatic. The hardest part is thinking about it. I find it the most stressful as many threads of thoughts run concurrently (*) and it takes some serious discipline to arrange them in my head before I can start writing my notes. For technical papers, I usually don't need more than a single outline nowadays. It just runs along with the standard technique and pre defined form factors. My papers are always readable, btw.
In the past, long papers would take several outlines, by hand, and the final outline would take lots of "erase tape" for the typewriter. At some point, I started to use text editors in the PDP11 and things became far better. Although the non science profs were surprised to see me turn in dot matrix output. They accepted it, though.
Nowadays, with word processors things are much better, the papers are nicer looking indeed, and with hypertext, and what not, the quality of the end product is far... "prettier".. but mostly with hyperlinks you can create much better quality papers... if you are paying attention. Many people just make it prettier and dumber.
Honestly, the typing class I took in the 8th grade proved one of the most useful courses I've ever taken... up there with Calculus and Advanced Classical Mechanics. For real.
BTW, we were not required to take any writing courses, but for some reason, our Physics guys (and two girls).... we all knew how to write properly and cogently. (**)
BTWII- I still have my 50 year old theasurus.
(*) “My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.”. Blazing Saddles.
(**) Did you notice the consistent style of the paragraphs in this post? How they start? Introducing a meandering set of thoughts to ensure a reading
flow: ( "In the past"... "Nowadays"... "Honestly"... and so on...)
The hardest thing, to me, was the introduction: How do you flow from nowhere to present the thesis?
At some point, writing becomes automatic. The hardest part is thinking about it. I find it the most stressful as many threads of thoughts run concurrently (*) and it takes some serious discipline to arrange them in my head before I can start writing my notes. For technical papers, I usually don't need more than a single outline nowadays. It just runs along with the standard technique and pre defined form factors. My papers are always readable, btw.
In the past, long papers would take several outlines, by hand, and the final outline would take lots of "erase tape" for the typewriter. At some point, I started to use text editors in the PDP11 and things became far better. Although the non science profs were surprised to see me turn in dot matrix output. They accepted it, though.
Nowadays, with word processors things are much better, the papers are nicer looking indeed, and with hypertext, and what not, the quality of the end product is far... "prettier".. but mostly with hyperlinks you can create much better quality papers... if you are paying attention. Many people just make it prettier and dumber.
Honestly, the typing class I took in the 8th grade proved one of the most useful courses I've ever taken... up there with Calculus and Advanced Classical Mechanics. For real.
BTW, we were not required to take any writing courses, but for some reason, our Physics guys (and two girls).... we all knew how to write properly and cogently. (**)
BTWII- I still have my 50 year old theasurus.
(*) “My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.”. Blazing Saddles.
(**) Did you notice the consistent style of the paragraphs in this post? How they start? Introducing a meandering set of thoughts to ensure a reading
flow: ( "In the past"... "Nowadays"... "Honestly"... and so on...)
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Court judgements, beautifully succinct.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/richard-3rd-judgment-.pdf
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/richard-3rd-judgment-.pdf
Well, definitely you came up with a doozy all right.
The Queen was pissed off, I'm quite sure.
Did Leicester FC get delegated to 3rd division after this?
Lesson, if you get buried, get launched into the Heart Of The Sun like Spaceman... riding a convertible Tesla by a SpaceX rocket. No fancy pants Lady Judge will be writin' no fancy letters on the legal disposition of y'er bones.
The Queen was pissed off, I'm quite sure.
Did Leicester FC get delegated to 3rd division after this?
Lesson, if you get buried, get launched into the Heart Of The Sun like Spaceman... riding a convertible Tesla by a SpaceX rocket. No fancy pants Lady Judge will be writin' no fancy letters on the legal disposition of y'er bones.
I learned to stop reading the soundbite news articles that passes for news on court judgments. I instead just read the judgment document. I find that I can answer virtually all my questions rapidly. Those pages usually just melt away (which is quite often the case unless highly technical points of law are invoked, and those situations are ones that the judges seem to want to avoid). In the space of a half hour, I've got what I wanted to know plus a whole lot more. The minds of the judges are there to read, not innuendo from opposing politically extreme news organizations.
What I've found is that the news services try to spin what the judge(s) made clear. The news services seem to want to create ongoing mysteries and turmoil (like a weekly police or legal procedural TV show). I also find that the subtleties of what the judges say are often glossed over by news talking heads, the actual points of law and findings that took the court in one direction or the other. These are critical points to understand.
Chris
I once asked for directions to Alexandra Palace. I knew I was pretty near because I was on a hill (Ally Pally was the BBC's original television transmitter, so it needed to be at the top of a hill). Lady in posh coat refused to acknowledge query of thug on motorcycle, so I cursed her; "May your cold water cistern leak." A hundred yards down the road, a pretty young lady gave me explicit (and accurate) directions.
Newspapers are in business to sell newspapers, not truth.
Newspapers are in business to sell newspapers, not truth.
I started this thread to specifically talk about what is happening in the US. In fact, here is the very first statement I made in case you missed it or are just ignoring it.
“I don't know how it is in other countries, but in the US the younger generation has not learned how to speak properly”.
And apparently, I’m not alone in what I expressed, because 10 other people added their Like agreement to the post.
Now with regard to my comment about wanting to put an end to it, please include the entire sentence in your post and don’t pick just parts of it. Here is what I said:
“I'd like to see some way to put an end to it, but I'm like thinking it is just going to get worse.”
Notice carefully the “I’m like” wording. This sentence was included as an element of humor by using the very phrase that post is complaining about and is not to be taken literarily. I have no illusions about being able to end this unfortunate torture of the English language. I’m afraid that we are stuck with it and many other abominations of English as society in general, at least in the US, deteriorates in its language skills.
While you apparently don’t like the content of this thread, it seems that many others do. If you read through all of the current 260 posts, I think you find a rather lively and enjoyable discussion of the topic I raised.
You, of course, are free to participate or not as you so choose.
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This thread, especially the first post, is a great example of what happens when old men lose their inhibitions and post wonton rants about whatever they think the world needs to hear. Just the fact that I am positing this crap right here is a great example!
But come on people, do we really need to share this sort of personal sentiment with the rest of the world? Dear Mr. Montgomery Burns, I dare suggest that you go kick your dog named "Shakespeare" or punch a wall in your writing room or library if grammar abuse by "them young-uns" is bothering you so much!
Mods should close this thread, and frankly the entire "Lounge" forum and the garbage it collects. Please have mercy on the rest of us who must (at the very least) read past thread titles such as this one when looking through the main list of threads for any actually related to... DIYaudio.
But come on people, do we really need to share this sort of personal sentiment with the rest of the world? Dear Mr. Montgomery Burns, I dare suggest that you go kick your dog named "Shakespeare" or punch a wall in your writing room or library if grammar abuse by "them young-uns" is bothering you so much!
Mods should close this thread, and frankly the entire "Lounge" forum and the garbage it collects. Please have mercy on the rest of us who must (at the very least) read past thread titles such as this one when looking through the main list of threads for any actually related to... DIYaudio.
You can use the filter at the top right to choose your preferred sub forum(s).
Hugo
Hugo
Personally, I feel a bit in awe of those here using a language that is not their native language, especially a language that has so many consistency issues. I can only speak one language. Why is English so dominant for forums like this one, and not Mandarin or some other widely spoken language? Personally, I don't really know. I know that I benefit from this fact, but otherwise, it still is a mystery to me.
I would like to see more retention of local culture and local languages so that the world doesn't become "homogenized" culturally. It's a bit sad to see Coca-Cola, McDonalds, Starbucks, and Kentucky Fried Chicken so ever present wherever you look worldwide. I wish sometimes for a world a little less "common" and retaining of the unique experiences of local cultures.
I stopped taking National Geographic magazine a couple of decades ago when I realized that the world was becoming more monolithic and there really were no more exotic places to be discovered-to read about. The consequence of living in an information age is loss of novelty and "echo chambers" of culture and language. This includes subjects like popular music genres and even DIY audio reproduction.
Apparently, talking about the poor state of common usage of the language (with the implied goal of improving consistency and scholarship of it) is a much more emotively charged subject than I had realized. There seems to be some amount of pent up anger over this subject that, again, I don't fully understand. Some of it is understandable from the standpoint of generational tension and an intolerance thereof from younger generations like that I witnessed firsthand growing up in my country during the 1960s-70s, but the anger I just witnessed above actually exceeds that experience,
It is distressing that there seems to be any anger or so much apparant intolerance about this subject. It doesn't seem justified in light of the generally better standard of living for so many people than in past generations, especially looking back 75-100 years ago--which to me seems more like a mere blink of the eye in the grand scheme of things.
Chris
I would like to see more retention of local culture and local languages so that the world doesn't become "homogenized" culturally. It's a bit sad to see Coca-Cola, McDonalds, Starbucks, and Kentucky Fried Chicken so ever present wherever you look worldwide. I wish sometimes for a world a little less "common" and retaining of the unique experiences of local cultures.
I stopped taking National Geographic magazine a couple of decades ago when I realized that the world was becoming more monolithic and there really were no more exotic places to be discovered-to read about. The consequence of living in an information age is loss of novelty and "echo chambers" of culture and language. This includes subjects like popular music genres and even DIY audio reproduction.
Apparently, talking about the poor state of common usage of the language (with the implied goal of improving consistency and scholarship of it) is a much more emotively charged subject than I had realized. There seems to be some amount of pent up anger over this subject that, again, I don't fully understand. Some of it is understandable from the standpoint of generational tension and an intolerance thereof from younger generations like that I witnessed firsthand growing up in my country during the 1960s-70s, but the anger I just witnessed above actually exceeds that experience,
It is distressing that there seems to be any anger or so much apparant intolerance about this subject. It doesn't seem justified in light of the generally better standard of living for so many people than in past generations, especially looking back 75-100 years ago--which to me seems more like a mere blink of the eye in the grand scheme of things.
Chris
Anglosaxon culture dominates the world based on peace, love, understanding and daisies. Now it is time for China to do the very same.
Actually, I think that was reportedly the rallying cry at Woodstock. ☮️🕊️
I don't really know except for the newsreels and documentaries purporting that message. I was too young in 1969 to attend. My twin sisters were old enough (just before going off to U. Texas-Austin), but I think we lived too far away for them to make the journey (1650 mi). That's like driving to L.A. from here.
Texas is a pretty big place...as it turns out. About like Australia in terms of population size now, but not as much empty acreage as Oz. We also don't have very many roos and koalas here. (I don't regularly ride or own a horse, or a cowboy hat. I did own boots in my 20s, but they were extremely uncomfortable. I gave up on that illusion a long time ago.)
I think people pick what they want for languages--other than their own. I do know that I had a choice between German, French or Spanish in grade 10, or trigonometry/analytic geometry and then later calculus. I chose one semester of German and one of trig--then calculus. One semester of a language didn't do much back then. There also weren't very many native German speakers around at that time. Most originally lived around Austin and farther to the southwest, but by then those speakers had mostly been subsumed into central Texas English drawl.
Spanish is still pretty big around here, if you call Tex-Mex Spanish, (e.g., "la chichi grande" is a local colloquialism). That language seems to be on a big upswing, in fact. Perhaps if I stay in the state (it's getting pretty hot here in the summers), I'll take a Berlitz course on Tex-Mex. They say it's never too late...
Chris
In case you missed it, here is the purpose of The Lounge as stated at the very top.
=========================================
The Lounge
A place to talk about almost anything but politics and religion.=========================================
As you can readily see there is no requirement to to talk about anything actually related to DIYaudio.
In fact, quite the opposite is true. It is a place to talk about anything else as the title clearly says.
Moreover, there is no obligation for anyone to read it. If it annoys or offends you, I suggest you don't read it.
I appreciate the general sentiment of the thread and have had much fun participating and seeing the creative mangling of the language and humorous deliberate errors!
I think having a place one can gently vent about life’s small issues is probably very good for mental health, especially when a sympathetic response is given.
It is disappointing to see how poorly English is used, when it can be so exquisite.
On the difference between US and British English I found Bill Bryson’s book on this subject fascinating and it changed my perspective completely.
The key takeaway of course “Don’t forget the Spackle!” 😀
I think having a place one can gently vent about life’s small issues is probably very good for mental health, especially when a sympathetic response is given.
It is disappointing to see how poorly English is used, when it can be so exquisite.
On the difference between US and British English I found Bill Bryson’s book on this subject fascinating and it changed my perspective completely.
The key takeaway of course “Don’t forget the Spackle!” 😀
This thread is about native English speakers grammatically murdering their mother tongue. It’s not about non-native speakers who should be congratulated IMV for their efforts to learn a second language. 😊
In rural Australia, the curse is: "may your chooks (chickens) turn into emus and kick your dunny (outside shed toilet) down"
Geoff
Despite this having gone in so many directions as to what people think that they read, or were eager to jump on an unrelated topic to make their pitch, the point that I caught from the first post was about proper communication using language as a tool to support it. Words such as 'like', ****, ummm, awesome, et al miss the point of worthy communication and in the end waste communication along with the time that was also spent in waste.