I agree, and the solution to that is not to care too much on the numbers but to 'filter' the reviews on how much you agree with them judging other speakers they've rated and descripted and you know their taste. The rating number alone says practically nothing and that was what I wanted to emphase.
I didn't see any mention the desired dispersion angle for the speaker. With horns or waveguides the controlled dispersion can remove some of the effect the room has on the sound. The full range drivers fall into this narrower dispersion category as do most studio monitors. Speakers with a small diameter tweeter ( 19 mm) and smaller midrange ( 75 mm - 100 mm) can have very wide dispersion, think of the LS3/5a, such that the room acoustics are much more involved in the sound and the performance seems to be more in your room than behind the speakers as it is with narrow dispersion units. Something to consider. The others are the maximum SPL and the low frequency cutoff of the bass.
I've already thought about that. What a WG or horn does is not only to provide dispersion control, it also increases the spl. The problem with that is, it also increases the noise and the thread opener didn't specify the amplifier, regarding his requirements, it's likely a tube amp. For near or mid-field listening the dispersion doesn't matter that much but it should not be leglected. My suggested speakers got a quite broad dispersion but maintain it very constantly. Once you've achieved a controlled dispersion, it's up to you to decide to accept it or to treat your room acoustically. Dispersion is one of the few things you can't fix with a DSP, so you have to fix that at the driver, the horn/WG, the enviroment (reflection) or placement of the driver.
If none of that works for you, look for other speakers or speaker principles.
That's likely not the solution here. High spl isn't a requirement so ie a sub isn't very useful.
A good speaker will perform well on all kinds of music.
Perhaps the idea of this comes from certain design flaws which accent parts of the spectrum and make some speakers sound bad with some types of music, but acceptable with others.
Yes, you are right. But I don't like to hold lectures and only go into detail if required. And you know that.
Well, that depends on the room and here's no issue using it like that, so I'd suggest a DBA but it seems the thread opener prefers going without subs, otherwise that would make a ton more speakers viable.
I can assure you, both my suggested speakers have excellent dispersion over the all the frequency range except the bass (for obvious reasons) and up to 18k and 20k respectively.
You misunderstand me, I wasn't suggesting a solution, I was asking what do you want the speaker to do? Any speaker's performance is characterized by it's dispersion width, maximum SPL and low frequency limit. It's not a "solution". Dispersion is often between 30 degrees and 90 degrees. The maximum SPL can be anything from 90 dB up to 120 dB or more. The bass low frequency limit can be as high as 90 Hz for a speaker with a 3 or 4" woofer or as low as 20 Hz.
For example a small speaker could have 60 degree dispersion, a low frequency limit of 70 Hz and a maximum SPL at one meter of 94 dB. Those three numbers pretty much entirely specify what kind of speaker is required.
The speaker I'm currently building has 360 degree dispersion, a low frequency cut off of 38 Hz and a maximum SPL of about 110 dB at one meter.
Well, it's not the question what I would do, it's up to @Elfriede to decide what's needed. The maximum spl on these two speakers is way above the requirements. But I would never suggest a 3-4" driver for going deep since it's not only about the measurement but also about how realistic it sounds. I can assure you, you will not get a realistic bass reproduction of any sort of driver that small. The distortion limit of the two suggested speakers is above 105dB, which is plenty, likely never ever needed if you look at the requirements. But I suggested these speakers not because of the max spl but because they will play extremely relaxed way beyond the requirements and even if these would change, they can keep up with it.
His (her?) taste and preference is what counts, not mine, not yours, not anyone else's. If you say that is a too high burden, you essentially say he (she?) has no say in the matter. I mean WTF?! You want to decide what is relevant?!
Hmm... my wife's office is 10x12 feet. Her speakers are on a shelf above her very wide monitor. about 2 1/2 feet from her ears. Speakers are about 3 feet from each other. Across the room she has a comfy chair, it's about 8 feet away.
When it came to speakers I wanted something that would sound coherent and would image perfectly. At first I put my old 2 way Acoustic Energy AE1s, imaging was perfect but she wanted a bit more bass, so, I bought a pair of small Mark Audio kits that I was gonna hook up to a small subwoofer.... but then I also bought a pair of Elac Unifi 2.0 UB52 speakers on sale on Amazon. They are 3 way but the midrange and tweeter are coax and the speaker is small enough that the woofer is quite close. The end result is fantastic imaging with reasonable bass reach. You don't hear the drivers.
For 500 bucks.... easy to drive too.
Sometimes, DIY sounds good, but for what you want, I think there are speakers already made for awesome prices... and in the near field a "standard" 3 driver, 3 way is not gonna sound very pin point imaging. IMHO.
As an example of what can be achieved for not too many euros, here's a Peerless/Vifa project with a comprehensive write up (in German, but I expect you'll have no problem reading it:
https://www.donhighend.de/?page_id=5022
The documentation indicates that bass starts to fall off at around 80Hz, so you would need a sub; the drivers are good quality, but cheap. I did a test build of an MTM using the same drivers, but a different crossover, of course, and they sounded very good. As noted above, a good crossover can make less expensive drivers really shine.
Another project with Peerless and Vifa drivers (different tweeter to above), this won a speaker design contest:
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/the-saffrons/
Geoff
https://www.donhighend.de/?page_id=5022
The documentation indicates that bass starts to fall off at around 80Hz, so you would need a sub; the drivers are good quality, but cheap. I did a test build of an MTM using the same drivers, but a different crossover, of course, and they sounded very good. As noted above, a good crossover can make less expensive drivers really shine.
Another project with Peerless and Vifa drivers (different tweeter to above), this won a speaker design contest:
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/the-saffrons/
Geoff
Hi Christian
Just to clarify your requirements, by "kit" do you mean a full package of the materials, in one package with instructions, etc from one source (such as the German website cited by ICG) or are you willing to make up your own 'kit' from a Bill of Materials and documentation? Are you looking for a design with the crossover already assembled?
For example, of the projects I've mentioned, only one - that from Troels' website - is a "kit" with all the bits you need, purchasable from Jantzen Audio. The other projects are assembled, sometimes from different stores, as per the Bill of Materials. Among other things, a good Bill will specify what type and quality of parts should be used in the crossover.
Geoff
Just to clarify your requirements, by "kit" do you mean a full package of the materials, in one package with instructions, etc from one source (such as the German website cited by ICG) or are you willing to make up your own 'kit' from a Bill of Materials and documentation? Are you looking for a design with the crossover already assembled?
For example, of the projects I've mentioned, only one - that from Troels' website - is a "kit" with all the bits you need, purchasable from Jantzen Audio. The other projects are assembled, sometimes from different stores, as per the Bill of Materials. Among other things, a good Bill will specify what type and quality of parts should be used in the crossover.
Geoff
Hi guys.
Thank you to all the contributors to this thread. I didn't expect to get so much input within one day.
I didn't mention my current amp's, yet. Currently I do have 2 amps, which I want to use. I do not plan to get a new amp at that stage.
I try to listen to the design first (if possible) or listen to a another design of the same developer. I don't want to dump time and money.
I need to go through all the comments first. I hope I haven't forgotten anyone. If so, I apologize.
I can solder the XO, but I cannot develop a XO. As long I can get a complete documentation how the speaker should be built (which drivers, XO circuit and which XO components, how the damping should be applied) I can handle it.
I will check your links you send earlier in this thread.
Have I nice weekend.
Christian
Thank you to all the contributors to this thread. I didn't expect to get so much input within one day.
I didn't mention my current amp's, yet. Currently I do have 2 amps, which I want to use. I do not plan to get a new amp at that stage.
- Old Exposure (VII/VIII)
- Old Lector VF70
I try to listen to the design first (if possible) or listen to a another design of the same developer. I don't want to dump time and money.
I need to go through all the comments first. I hope I haven't forgotten anyone. If so, I apologize.
@GeoffMillar
Basically, it can be a complete kit, or I buy the compontes (drivers, XO-components, damping material) from different sources.I can solder the XO, but I cannot develop a XO. As long I can get a complete documentation how the speaker should be built (which drivers, XO circuit and which XO components, how the damping should be applied) I can handle it.
I will check your links you send earlier in this thread.
@olsond3
I hope I got you right. I am looking for a speaker for near-midfield listening. 2 meters, or if possible even closer. The room is small, (around 11,5 sqm) and it is my man cave. As the room is very small, I also would like to reduce the early reflections in that particular small room. The room has axial room mode of around 45Hz. (narrowed calculation by f = (c * n) / (2 * length), c = 343m/s, n = 1), I also will try to do some measurements in my room with some other speakers. The bass should probably already fall around 100 to 80 Hz. Or maybe even a bit higher.@AllenB
Yes, certainly, of course, a good speaker design reproduces any kind of music in good quality. When comparing two, three, four etc good designs, all of them play any kid of music at a top level. But even though, every speaker has its own strength (I do not want to say weaknesses here). Some sound better with Rock/Rock, some better with Classical Music, some do best in Jazz etc. And it depends on the room acoustics, the personal performance and the amps with are powering them.@tonyEE
Yes, for sure there are also comercial speakers on the second hand market suitable.@ICG
I will check the documentation of Klang&Ton. I have the Allyoucanread (AYCR) subscription.Have I nice weekend.
Christian
He does mostly solid work but his 3-way are usually quite above the budget or not ideal for small rooms or both. I only buy the magazine occasionally, he mostly builds 2-ways or extremely expensive speakers. I didn't find any of his speakers that fit the requirements and are still available.