That's because your definition of an "enlightened" engineer is a person who subscribes to "a huge multitude of physiological, psychological, neuronal and cerebral processes."
You just don't seem to understand, or at least acknowledge, that is exactly the opposite of what engineering is all about.
Engineers are trained and educated to deal with the real world, real components, real performance measurements. Not some arbitrary make-believe world of emotional responses that do not correlate to actual measurements.
I understood and agreed.
Fully agreed.
My point is the following: I fully understand that an electrical engineer lives his professional life, if any, between a slide rule, a series of computer simulation programs and is immersed in mathematics, and rightly does not have and cannot have space in his professional life for what is not measurable, detectable, demonstrable.
I understand the above perfectly and find it very fair and predictable.
But I also believe that an engineer is first and foremost a person, and it is to that person that I refer with my sometimes even a bit "difficult" questions, not to the engineer.
I fully agreed with this.
Please note (and read) that I just wrote something like this in my previous reply.
Good. We are finally getting somewhere.
In the real world there are no significant measurable changes to equipment performance after the first few hours of burn-in. And for most manufactured products that's already done at the factory. So, when you get it home, it's not going to change any further. At least not for a very long time when some components possibly weaken or fail.
Now if some people want to live in a non-real world and believe that with ongoing use, call it more burn-in if you like, they can hear things that can't be measured that's fine. It might make them feel good and satisfied, but it's not the real world.
And to take this one step further why are these changes in sound being claimed always for the better. Why are they not for the worst. There is no explanation for that because there is no explanation for the existence of burn-in sound changes to begin with.
In the real world there are no significant measurable changes to equipment performance after the first few hours of burn-in. And for most manufactured products that's already done at the factory. So, when you get it home, it's not going to change any further. At least not for a very long time when some components possibly weaken or fail.
Now if some people want to live in a non-real world and believe that with ongoing use, call it more burn-in if you like, they can hear things that can't be measured that's fine. It might make them feel good and satisfied, but it's not the real world.
And to take this one step further why are these changes in sound being claimed always for the better. Why are they not for the worst. There is no explanation for that because there is no explanation for the existence of burn-in sound changes to begin with.
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So, I gave you an inch and you took a mile.
I think that even an electric engineer does not really know what the real world is.
And what the real world isn't.
If you put it that way you're excluding yourself from any kind of real reasoning.
But of course if you're excluding yourself you can't see it so you'll deny the evidence.
And you'll be more and more convinced that the real world is what falls under your own senses and that what you don't perceive as reality simply doesn't exist.
I don't know if you know what I mean and especially what you yourself said.
There is nothing more subjective than what you said.
Nice observation.
May be because the world works in a way and we think we understand what is bigger than us to be understood.
If you think about how our technology is still so rudimentary in its incompleteness and ignorance, maybe you know what I mean.
It simply cannot be worse, unless it fails due to breakdown or aging.
It would be like saying that a pair of new shoes will hurt you more and more the more you wear them and walk in them.
It cannot be.
It would be like saying that a car engine if pre-heated or in any case running-in on the road or on the bench will have worse performance and will be noisier and will consume more, but it is not what it happens.
However, I found your reflection interesting and who knows if someone will find an exception to this that seems to happen with practically everything.
Even the rails of a train and the wheels that fit on them as the train moves will adapt more and more and the train will run more easily and more silently.
It seems to be the nature of all things, why shouldn't it be the same with electronics?
And with the perception of that effect?
If the effect is not denied, why deny the possibility that I perceive it?
On what basis?
But, they are present.
Example of an engineer with all the qualities you list is @geoffkait.
Visit his site Machina Dynamica and be totally amazed with products that such engineering qualities can come with. Be sure, please, to read explanations of “Smart little clock” working principles and for other products if you could spare time. Nothing will be the same after.
https://www.machinadynamica.com/machina42.htm
https://www.machinadynamica.com/machina5.htm
Incredible fun.
In many countries, the mains current is "2-phase": a voltage conductor and a non-voltage conductor. And depending on how you connect the device, it sounds different. Usually cleaner, more focused or dirtier, more torn. You can choose the connection according to the sound. And then use the "peek-measurement method", quasi to check the sound determined by the "hearing measurement method"-)
I always see that those involved in audio do not regard audio, hearing, as a measurement process. Which is unscientific with regard to audio;-) I see that they lack a "scientific" ambition;-)
I always see that those involved in audio do not regard audio, hearing, as a measurement process. Which is unscientific with regard to audio;-) I see that they lack a "scientific" ambition;-)
Given that precisely the same alternating current flows through the live and neutral wires, how do you suppose the equipment - and your ears - can tell the difference?
That's quite an assertion!
The lifespan of every example you mention is being 'used up' even if it is subjectively and/or measurably 'better' for a while. It is a trifling matter to give many examples of products which immediately start to degrade or become unusable after their first use: knife blades/clothes/ring pull drinks cans/ejector seats...
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Maybe I'm wrong, but certain things don't amuse me even a little.
And the above "certain things" don't interest me even in the slightest.
Talking about other persons, then, I find less interesting than anything else.
I would sincerely like very much that you to tell me about yours yourself experiences and/or thoughts...
However, I've the utmost presumption to know and to select what I know for me myelf things and elements to give importance to in the fine-tuning of my system as an "almost" mechanical engineer that I'm and, just to give you an example of something that it has already been said in this thread, NO I've never put or thought of putting supports between the speaker cables and the floor.
And I don't think I ever will.
Anyway, if I ever did it (and I didn't) I certainly wouldn't be ashamed of it nor would I give importance to the possible derision of detractors, even if generally speaking I strongly prefer a disagreement to derision.
Anyway, I've instead put between the support surface and my "almost" self-built power amp some feet with six removable springs that work great.
Most of all, they "sound" great and I do not care at all if I can't demonstrate it. 😉
You sound like a native English speaker and I'm not, and I don't know how to properly interpret a couple of your sentences, but it doesn't matter too much.
However, I'm sorry if you don't consider them up to your level (and I'm not being ironic at all, but I use Google Translate), but this early morning with just a coffee I couldn't do better.
Even though I think it doesn't change anything, and the cans have nothing to do with it.
If you like, give me some more elevated examples.
I'll be sincerely happy too. 🙂
I would ask also how both measurement methods, hearing and seeing, can make the same statement;-)
The solution to the puzzle difference is quite simple if you know it;-)
Using “Find all threads by …” you can get good insight in someone’s opinions and experience. Next is to skim through “Find all content by … “. Paints good enough picture.
I will just add that I prefer not to be dead serious in communication (while I’m dead serious about work and design) and this is the very spirit of this forum subsection.
This thread drifts apart from the topic and we are rowdy guests in the Pass Labs forum section. So, I will refrain from posting further in this thread.
Such topics usually belong to the Longue section.
To avoid having to use "cable supports" or "decouplers", I would mount the speakers connections at a height that allows the cables to hang.
Aside: Anyone who spends e.g. 30,000 Ocken on any kind of strip has no knowledge of the shoddy construction of their equipment;-)
Thanks for pointing that out to me, because I completely missed it and now I don't want to feel uncomfortable here.
It seemed strange to me that you actually quoted me, but evidently when there are certain apparitions they always have the same purpose.
I guess why you're talking about this way and that's why I'll do the same thing even if I don't agree at all, but at the same time I don't want to feel sacrilegious,
Yes, I had already heard this same statement from you some time ago.
On the other hand, people don't change.
You seem to have some sort of fantasy idea that the real world does not exist. That engineers cannot predict the performance of a device.
As I said before, if that is your perception of the real world you better not ever get on an airplane. Since the aeronautical engineers that designed it don't really understand the real world and it might not fly correctly.
I, on the other hand, repeat my comment, # 76:
"You have installed all the sound obstructors you can;-)
From sleeves, eyelets, spacers and certainly other things that are not obvious here. That will never "burn in"-)"
I request to reassemble the amp and then report again about the "Burn In" suspicion, or wish;-)
"You have installed all the sound obstructors you can;-)
From sleeves, eyelets, spacers and certainly other things that are not obvious here. That will never "burn in"-)"
I request to reassemble the amp and then report again about the "Burn In" suspicion, or wish;-)
