And the average age in Africa is 19 years, compared to Europe which is 42 years
So not many in that tribe are going to have a chans to do it 😉
I think this thread should read "What justifies charging relatively high prices for drive units which appear to be made from common materials and using basic manufacturing processes?"
Fact is, you can build a very good driver for a relatively low price using the latest manufacturing methods and easy to access materials, as long as its not sensitive to being controlled or exclusively owned by only one company and very few individuals knowing how to work with it or being able to access it. Very tight tolerances can justify the price only if it improves performance or reliability in some way beneficial to the driver. If the driver uses special hard to source materials ie. Beryllium, Boron, diamond, Gold which require special processes and extreme precision to implement, this can demand very high prices.
A trade secret or patent can justify asking a higher price than is warranted based on R&D having been invested into the manufacturing process of the product or the fundamental operating principle. The more exclusive the technology implemented combined with rare, hard to work with materials further pushes the price through the roof.
Then you have the big one, which is marketing, advertising and licensing. This is where most prices become established and this matters just as much as the driver itself as a finished product after all cost are incurred, being ready to sell. Name and brand association (especially when coupled with celebrities) are huge in modern markets and this can drive the price through the roof depending on how desirable the product can be made through marketing and design aspects alone. This doesn't really apply to DIY speaker drivers but its a large deciding consideration with alot of common technology related products.
The manufacturer has to decide whether its better to sell a few pieces at astronomical prices or very many at a lower, more average price similar to competitive products already in the market. Only very large companies with access to cheap labor can pull off large quantities for reasonable prices.
Some high end manufacturers which use third party off the shelf drivers may not want the DIY sector to be affiliated with or having access to the samr driver they're using in their speaker, which can stipulate exclusivity and the right to use the driver only in their speaker. Sometimes the purchasing company will stipulate a slightly modified design of an existing driver and expect it to be kept from being sold in the DIY market. When ATC pulled out of the DIY market with their big 3" midrange super dome, they knew exactly they had a very exclusive and highly engineered driver which sets them apart from other manufacturers. Controlling the market can make your own product more valuable if you're the only one manufacturing it.
Keeping a driver out of other people's hands avoids a competing product with the same driver. It also avoids individuals in the DIY market getting a hold of it and picking it apart and publishing the process on YouTube or social media, potentially revealing detailed inner workings for others to copy oversees and avoid patent issues. This is a big one IMO. Even so, someone from a competing manufacturer could purchase the speaker and reverse engineer it. Its usually just a matter of time before that happens anyways and it can only be avoided if the manufacturing process remains a protected trade secret which isn't easy to duplicate without special tooling or processes.
So in the end, the price of a driver is justified by its level of engineering and performance, materials and processes its made from and finally reputation of the brand itself. Marketing, celebrity and brand association can drive the price up considerably and unreasonably. Thats why some great drivers with lots of great engineering like the TC9 fullrange are relatively cheap and some other drivers like the Scanspeak Ellipticors are so ridiculously expensive. In between you have the main slice of the market ie. B&C 8NDL51, 8PE21, DE250, Morel CAT378, SB34NRXL, SB26STAC, Eminence Beta 8A, KL3012LF, CX, Celestion CDX1-1430, Audax TW034, TW025A28, HM210. PR170MO, Seas 22TAF, 27TDFC, 27TFFC, 27TBCD, D19TD. etc to name just a few.
The above mentioned drivers are some which have used in very high end designs and perform as well as some basic crossover and enclosure designs permit them to. The enclosure and crossover are a huge factor in the level of performance you end up with. This is engineering and manufacturing which some of us don't have access to.
A reasonably priced, well engineered and excellent sounding speaker can be had from any of the mainstream drivers commonly available from Madisound, Parts Express and other DIY friendly companies. What people can build in their own home workshop or even kitchen table can rival some multi $1000 designs. This site makes it easier and possible to most anyone with basic woodworking and electronics skills.
Fact is, you can build a very good driver for a relatively low price using the latest manufacturing methods and easy to access materials, as long as its not sensitive to being controlled or exclusively owned by only one company and very few individuals knowing how to work with it or being able to access it. Very tight tolerances can justify the price only if it improves performance or reliability in some way beneficial to the driver. If the driver uses special hard to source materials ie. Beryllium, Boron, diamond, Gold which require special processes and extreme precision to implement, this can demand very high prices.
A trade secret or patent can justify asking a higher price than is warranted based on R&D having been invested into the manufacturing process of the product or the fundamental operating principle. The more exclusive the technology implemented combined with rare, hard to work with materials further pushes the price through the roof.
Then you have the big one, which is marketing, advertising and licensing. This is where most prices become established and this matters just as much as the driver itself as a finished product after all cost are incurred, being ready to sell. Name and brand association (especially when coupled with celebrities) are huge in modern markets and this can drive the price through the roof depending on how desirable the product can be made through marketing and design aspects alone. This doesn't really apply to DIY speaker drivers but its a large deciding consideration with alot of common technology related products.
The manufacturer has to decide whether its better to sell a few pieces at astronomical prices or very many at a lower, more average price similar to competitive products already in the market. Only very large companies with access to cheap labor can pull off large quantities for reasonable prices.
Some high end manufacturers which use third party off the shelf drivers may not want the DIY sector to be affiliated with or having access to the samr driver they're using in their speaker, which can stipulate exclusivity and the right to use the driver only in their speaker. Sometimes the purchasing company will stipulate a slightly modified design of an existing driver and expect it to be kept from being sold in the DIY market. When ATC pulled out of the DIY market with their big 3" midrange super dome, they knew exactly they had a very exclusive and highly engineered driver which sets them apart from other manufacturers. Controlling the market can make your own product more valuable if you're the only one manufacturing it.
Keeping a driver out of other people's hands avoids a competing product with the same driver. It also avoids individuals in the DIY market getting a hold of it and picking it apart and publishing the process on YouTube or social media, potentially revealing detailed inner workings for others to copy oversees and avoid patent issues. This is a big one IMO. Even so, someone from a competing manufacturer could purchase the speaker and reverse engineer it. Its usually just a matter of time before that happens anyways and it can only be avoided if the manufacturing process remains a protected trade secret which isn't easy to duplicate without special tooling or processes.
So in the end, the price of a driver is justified by its level of engineering and performance, materials and processes its made from and finally reputation of the brand itself. Marketing, celebrity and brand association can drive the price up considerably and unreasonably. Thats why some great drivers with lots of great engineering like the TC9 fullrange are relatively cheap and some other drivers like the Scanspeak Ellipticors are so ridiculously expensive. In between you have the main slice of the market ie. B&C 8NDL51, 8PE21, DE250, Morel CAT378, SB34NRXL, SB26STAC, Eminence Beta 8A, KL3012LF, CX, Celestion CDX1-1430, Audax TW034, TW025A28, HM210. PR170MO, Seas 22TAF, 27TDFC, 27TFFC, 27TBCD, D19TD. etc to name just a few.
The above mentioned drivers are some which have used in very high end designs and perform as well as some basic crossover and enclosure designs permit them to. The enclosure and crossover are a huge factor in the level of performance you end up with. This is engineering and manufacturing which some of us don't have access to.
A reasonably priced, well engineered and excellent sounding speaker can be had from any of the mainstream drivers commonly available from Madisound, Parts Express and other DIY friendly companies. What people can build in their own home workshop or even kitchen table can rival some multi $1000 designs. This site makes it easier and possible to most anyone with basic woodworking and electronics skills.
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I don't see any tolerances there? Fine wire is otherwise simply a commodity at this point.
Don't mix median age with life expectancy. Life expectancy in africa was 64 years in 2023. Of course that's not much, but considering this value is lowered considerably by infant mortality the chance of reaching an age of 50 (and being allowed to speak up in that tribe) is still high.
(Sorry for off topic!)
@profiguy and others,
Let's assume that the ScanSpeak Revelator D2905/9900-00 ($286) sounds better than the SB26STAC-C000-4 ($49). (I say assume so as not to get bogged down by arguments of whether this is true or not.)
Both are 1" soft done tweeters. Both sound good. The SB26 is not a $7 no-name tweeter, its distortion may be higher than the Revelator but it's quite good.
Why does the Revelator SOUND BETTER?
Let's assume that the ScanSpeak Revelator D2905/9900-00 ($286) sounds better than the SB26STAC-C000-4 ($49). (I say assume so as not to get bogged down by arguments of whether this is true or not.)
Both are 1" soft done tweeters. Both sound good. The SB26 is not a $7 no-name tweeter, its distortion may be higher than the Revelator but it's quite good.
Why does the Revelator SOUND BETTER?
@A4eaudio That SS revalator has been around for a long time. Its been improved a few times and sounds better, simply because it has a more favorable distortion profile and a significantly better motor design with back chamber.
Vifa/ScanSpeak have been making higher end soft domes since the beginning of time. They refined that design since the early 80s. It has a very tight tolerance magnetic gap, a proven combination of materials, adhesives and assembly techniques. The people who put these tweeters together have been doing it for a long time. Its just a sum of parts and materials assembled a certain way which makes them sound better than the majority of soft domes available. Their main rivals are Seas, Audax, Morel and Dynaudio for that specific design of soft dome. They all make very high end, proven soft dome drivers and have excellent reputations. You will pay for that experience and credibility by itself.
SB is high value per dollar and the SB26STAC just isn't as refined of a driver from multiple aspects. The perceived differences between the two drivers are more obvious to some people than others, depending on what you're listening for and how much experience you have with higher end drivers of this type. The tolerances SB allows are going to be looser to start with, plus the VC on the SB isn't replaceable like the Scanspeak is. You pay for that serviceability being engineered into it as well.
Quite a few high end speakers have used this revalator line of soft domes and they're simply one of the best sounding soft domes available by reputation and performance. You pay for that, including the experienced labor used to put them together. Its not intended to be a budget driver with fewer corners having been cut. The SB tweeter is put together on a tighter budget in many aspects. It can get somewhat close to the performance of a higher end soft dome and has some of the higher end features, but its just not there overall in terms of quality.
Vifa/ScanSpeak have been making higher end soft domes since the beginning of time. They refined that design since the early 80s. It has a very tight tolerance magnetic gap, a proven combination of materials, adhesives and assembly techniques. The people who put these tweeters together have been doing it for a long time. Its just a sum of parts and materials assembled a certain way which makes them sound better than the majority of soft domes available. Their main rivals are Seas, Audax, Morel and Dynaudio for that specific design of soft dome. They all make very high end, proven soft dome drivers and have excellent reputations. You will pay for that experience and credibility by itself.
SB is high value per dollar and the SB26STAC just isn't as refined of a driver from multiple aspects. The perceived differences between the two drivers are more obvious to some people than others, depending on what you're listening for and how much experience you have with higher end drivers of this type. The tolerances SB allows are going to be looser to start with, plus the VC on the SB isn't replaceable like the Scanspeak is. You pay for that serviceability being engineered into it as well.
Quite a few high end speakers have used this revalator line of soft domes and they're simply one of the best sounding soft domes available by reputation and performance. You pay for that, including the experienced labor used to put them together. Its not intended to be a budget driver with fewer corners having been cut. The SB tweeter is put together on a tighter budget in many aspects. It can get somewhat close to the performance of a higher end soft dome and has some of the higher end features, but its just not there overall in terms of quality.
Also keep in mind that raw specs and performance measurements / data isn't the end all in proving or explaining the overall sound quality or performance potential of any given driver. The measurements indicate basic performance potential but in no specific way explain the subjective sound profile of a given driver under scrutiny. There are some things we hear which can't be pinpointed or identified with typical industry standard measurements. I've had this argument many times with some very experienced people in the speaker business. You simply cannot nail down the specific type of data which makes one driver sound perceivably better than another. Claiming you can do so leaves many unanswered and unexplained theories open for debate. Alot more further scientific evaluation methods are required which we currently can't identify as the exact cause or reason for what we perceive as better or worse perceived sound.
Well so are the drivers and your right about tolerances. The point is calling out dimension to 3 and 4 decimal places requires tolerances out at least another decimal point. That's not cheap. Basically all of these drivers are using custom drawings with occasion standardization with frames and motors. Plastic face plate on a tweeter or anodized aluminum? Neo vs Ferrite? Be vs Ti? round wire vs. edge wound, stamped frame vs cast all, of these are cost drivers.
Not even getting into process control where you can reliably purchase a pair of drivers and get a reasonable match.
Rob 🙂
I bought two Peerless DA32TX00-08 tweeters for a project. They sound fantastic. I wanted two more, but I could not find only two. After searching the world I bought the last pair from a dealer in The Netherlands. Minimum order quantity is now 500.
We are (the fraction of music lovers who care about sound quality) * (the fraction of those who modify and build gear for that SQ)
Please tell us what they cost you delivered, and what they cost in quantity of 500, ex warehouse...per unit, for comparison.
I remember that I read some 30 years ago about the pollution of the nearby river, in Germany, so delocalization of the environment and associated contamination must be good! 10 years ago the last pieces of the biggest iron factory in Genova flew to China, the one near me, in Piombino, is under redundancy fund from 10 years or more, same as the big one in south Italy, in Taranto. No t to talk about petrol implants in Sicily, where strange no t-so-much DNA modification in the population around is reported. The people don't want em, the people have to work. Someone is in charge to choose and regulate between the two. There's often a third party...
I like the story of JVC, the name and the meaning. I like the Matsushita and National, not to mention Pioneer, Sony, Yamaha.
See what Kenwood do now...
Kenwood still is into radio, car audio and home audio, it has been well regarded for decades in those fields.
After Yaesu, it was the most preferred Japanese brand for ham radio equipment, and discussing that will take too much space in a non related forum.
It is JVCKenwood now, having merged with JVC, which was associated with Matsushita earlier, one of the consequences of businesses evolving.
After Yaesu, it was the most preferred Japanese brand for ham radio equipment, and discussing that will take too much space in a non related forum.
It is JVCKenwood now, having merged with JVC, which was associated with Matsushita earlier, one of the consequences of businesses evolving.
Perception is key.if you can persuade somone to pay more for a product and you do because the marketing spin has worked then who wins.not the buyer. Marketing is everywere and it sucks people in all the time to part with there dollars.was the product really that good and does it bring me real satisfaction it promissed. Nobody can answere that other than the buyer.
JVC started as the Japan dealer / distributor of RCA Victor, hence 'Japanese Victor Company', from the earlier 'Victor Company of Japan', this was prior to WWII.
I think cinema projection and sound systems were among the products sold by them.
I think cinema projection and sound systems were among the products sold by them.
Why does a Dayton Audio ND25FW-4 sounds much better than a Scan-Speak D3004/6600? Both are low distortion 1" soft domes and the cheap Dayton runs circles around the expensive SS, IME.
Uhm I didn't know that Kenwood returned to hi-fi...
https://www.kenwood.it/home/hi-fi/
Indeed those are things that you find in a home decor... other than the food mixer
https://www.kenwood.it/home/hi-fi/
Indeed those are things that you find in a home decor... other than the food mixer
Production quantities as well just (artificial) marketing price are by far what drives prices.
Followed by how good and efficient production and assembly is. (Or how bad in some cases)
With a bit of leftovers of import fees and shipping.
The rest is all matter of just a couple of dollars here and there at best.
Even fancy materials won't cost much more when being produced in high enough quantities.
Followed by how good and efficient production and assembly is. (Or how bad in some cases)
With a bit of leftovers of import fees and shipping.
The rest is all matter of just a couple of dollars here and there at best.
Even fancy materials won't cost much more when being produced in high enough quantities.