Here is a fancy one, DSP is available not only per channel but also per beat step per channel. I am able to set any combination of digital filters and effects in real time and on the fly per beat step per channel as well on the master and monitor outs
Thats on the source while the inputs of cab#1 will have fairly comprehensive DSP with on the OSD and programming app. This is a digital and analog input module with 6 outs and onboard DSP including DTS and AC3 and such
With all that, I may be able to set any desired curve…..as long as as much SPL and headroom as possible is packed into the microwave
With my budget, I can pack in 112dB overall bass according to predictions for a single ZR12.4D and 118dB overall mid bass to 20kHz with a single coax
Interesting that some say that’s not getting loud yet for indoor or porch/ deck while another says it’s excessive bass
Which is it?
Thats on the source while the inputs of cab#1 will have fairly comprehensive DSP with on the OSD and programming app. This is a digital and analog input module with 6 outs and onboard DSP including DTS and AC3 and such
With all that, I may be able to set any desired curve…..as long as as much SPL and headroom as possible is packed into the microwave
With my budget, I can pack in 112dB overall bass according to predictions for a single ZR12.4D and 118dB overall mid bass to 20kHz with a single coax
Interesting that some say that’s not getting loud yet for indoor or porch/ deck while another says it’s excessive bass
Which is it?
The girls would be practising in the little council pergola/picnic hut at the beach park and in the school hall as well as the porch/lawn at home. They are a trio with my daughter on electric bass/double bass and 2 sets of Roland TR as well as GarageBand and FL Studio sequencer, and her two classmates, one on sax and one on the viola. This is the 3rd year of them practising and playing together. They take part in things like Eitefords and such too
In their own time, they bop to dubby EDM. The plan is to now let them loose with the pro Roland gear and set up synth pickup for the acoustic instruments so they can do their school music material as EDM. The school dual 15 two-way Yamaha active 4some has no low bass for this. Hoping that the 4 sets of ZR12.4Ds going 112dB each over the basslines and synth kicks will do better than the single z623 gaming sub that we add to that mix. The z623 with its 105dB at 50Hz as linked in another thread manages to sing over the band instruments, and you can feel it modulating the pressure in the hall. The teacher asked for a dark tone on this one from the electric bass. I wrapped a z623 up inside dress panels and some fabric. It has been loud enough to be heard over other instruments and sometimes even over the school PA. See the attached .mp4 in the zip and the pics of one of the ugly Logitech z623 wearing some fancy dress panels. That's still the original sub cab inside and the pair of FR drivers removed from their cabs and mounted in that head section. The system retains the 3 sets of stereo aux inputs that are just mixed in Logitech's design. So the z623 already has internal mixing for three stereo channels and boost on the control board in the left satellite. This is fitted in the head section too. This board is full of jfets. Looking at a private document, the internal amps are discrete class H for LF and 7293 on tracking psu for the tops as well as embedded DSP compressors and limiters. The 7" looks identical to an alloy cone Wavecor and the FRs seem to be smaller cone versions of the higher power Tang Band FRs with the phase plugs. I have the larger cone versions too. Everyone assumes this frankenthing is a musical instrument, no one realises that it's just a cheap gaming PC. The teachers were a bit devastated when a safety audit on cord tags in the school was done, but that was a $20 fix with the local electrician for a tag. Even the music shop doesnt know its a gaming system as they auditioned it and found it to be not only louder but lower and capable of a wider range of tones than anything in the shop. This thing sounds like a recorded bassline and can go from very warm to very dark as well as do amp duty for synths and edrums
The new speaker is to be a higher output mono and two used for home stereo, four for HT and the same four for work. One speaker to have a discrete out for Right active and aux stereo out for the 2nd set. The HT DSP board allows setting the set to surround mode or 2x stereo outs
xmax is one of the most misleading specs of the driver. Most of manufactures use the calculated physical Xmax= [(winding depth - magnetic gap depth)/2] as xmax , which is far from the reality. Some pro audio manufacturers like Faital Pro even use the more misleading formular Xmax= [(winding depth - magnetic gap depth)/2] + (magnetic gap depth/3).
From all the measurement verified by Klippel in Erin's website, Voice Coil only not many drivers have real xmax equal to quoted xmax in the datasheet. They are PHL, B&C (10NW76), Purifi, Scanspeak's Revelator and Illuminator line, SB Acoustics's Satori line, SEAS' Extreme line while Peerless, Scanspeak's Classic and Discovery line, SB Acoustics's non-Satori lines, Faital Pro all have inflated xmax values. Sadly there aren't any giant-killer here. The drivers without inflated xmax are almost in the most expensive bracket.
From all the measurement verified by Klippel in Erin's website, Voice Coil only not many drivers have real xmax equal to quoted xmax in the datasheet. They are PHL, B&C (10NW76), Purifi, Scanspeak's Revelator and Illuminator line, SB Acoustics's Satori line, SEAS' Extreme line while Peerless, Scanspeak's Classic and Discovery line, SB Acoustics's non-Satori lines, Faital Pro all have inflated xmax values. Sadly there aren't any giant-killer here. The drivers without inflated xmax are almost in the most expensive bracket.
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DSP or any other type of EQ will do NOTHING when speaker CAN NOT physically produce that much output at that frequency.
I'm talking "moving air".
To boot, it "might" reach down relatively flat at 1W 1 meter
At full power?
Not so sure, and that's the understatement of the year.
Is that enough reason to not try? How else would one ever find out what happens at full power? Of course one could listen to a Gotham or Fathom or even a Sunfire
I am starting to sense that since this is a more expensive route to base a business model on, private entrepreneurs can possibly feel threatened due to working with proven and tested things that are easier to implement like large bass out of large Sd as it makes those heavy SPL numbers a possibility to assemble on the kitchen table and a prospective user no longer requires the services of a workshop or speaker maker equipped with the knowledge, space and gear to make very large cabs for very large diameter drivers
This can be seen in any industry where a new and more user-friendly approach disrupts the existing order and starts off getting talked down by those trying to maintain the existing order. I was one of them when Uber disrupted my beloved taxi industry. I was also one of the disruptors to the established existing fishing rod tech by taking different and more user-friendly approach by being at the front of the design of the modern rod tech based on the PE number system. I have seen this from both ends
Now this is a place for DIY, which means trying things hands on and that includes trying new things and a forum is a place for discussion. I would enjoy seeing you expanding that same energy in taking a moment to also entertain the idea and see what your mind says about the possibilities that exist. Of course that would mean getting hands on with some likely parts but an alternative cheaper way would be to nudge someone like me along with these type of things too. I do see the resistance though due to the disruption factors mentioned
Also, just like the established speaker designers affiliated with large outlets, in a business case, the retail tackle pro teams would be losing revenue if they in anyway are seen to support any new tech that allows just a quiver of three rods to cover the whole spectrum of line classes and situations,. Such things by very nature tend to also have lower profit margins and higher sourcing and manufacturing costs at even parts level
But let me reinforce this, until the day that this forum changes name to the commercial club or starts moderating designs and work that are disruptive to established methods and branding pretensions, this bwoy will continue to ignore preemptive naysayers unless there is compelling argument too (Thank you many times over @weltersys, @GM, @planet10 and like)
I have created the start of yet another project, this time now in multiway for this attempt, lets just see how loud, low and clean this microwave can go, what's the worst that can happen, some derision from the pros and the parts go in the car or boats. If this is not a net loss for me and if you are talking it down instead of joining in a constructive dialogue, then logic says it must be somehow a net loss for you
The negativity is tiring, it's hard to imagine DIYers losing the wooooooo, I hope I never turn sour like that. With some well justified confidences in my crafting abilities, lets take watch a microwave take on a fridge 😛
The "fancy dress" on the z623 looks nice!
The "Striving for Success" mp4 low end peaks around 80Hz, about -50dB at 40Hz.
Nothing low there.
Assuming the mic was capturing the low end, most of what you were able to feel from the bass was not very low frequency.
The z623 with its 105dB at 50Hz was an indoor measurement from a random source (noaudiophile.com) at an unknown distance from the driver, it crapped out at ~95dB at 35Hz:
Based on that, you would not hear or feel much from the z623 compared to the dual 15" two-way Yamahas unless they were hardly on.
You didn't mention anything about the cabinet design or excursion of the ZR12.4Ds in your output estimations, but it wouldn't take much to beat 95dB at 35Hz 😉 .
Art
I should have mentioned, The PA is not on. The only thing plugged in is the bass and the iPhone mic struggles with bass. The rest of the instruments are acoustic. The point of the video is to show that the little 7" can keep up. Its now being replaced so beside the point
That's all from the z623, the school program doesn't make much use of low bass and only uses the PA during school disco. Building that in for extracurricular messing with their music book
40L for the 12" and 10L for the 6x9".........but will try to decrease that further if too large to live with
An acoustic double bass can do ~ 95dB at 3 meters, sounds like the little 7" could keep up with that level.
Still didn't didn't mention anything about the cabinet design (BR or sealed?) or excursion of the ZR12.4D...
Ah, sory. Its BR system tuned to 26Hz for equal camel backs on the impedance and Xmax is shown in the pic with each of Eric's 600w@4R modules on each coil
What do you figure the ZR12.4D Xmax might be?
Below the 26Hz Fb, the port's output goes out of phase with the driver, hence the 24dB per octave drop in output.
Excursion much below Fb is just wasting power.
A HP filter should be applied below Fb to limit excursion to around the same below as above.
6.5mm excursion at 38.5Hz should do ~ 102dB with ~100 watts, should be nearing ~13mm (around 108dB) at 400 watts.
Should be around 120dB with four cabinets ~ 38.5Hz, 116@30 Hz.
You could get a lot more "bang for the buck" moving the Fb up to 32Hz or so.
Below the 26Hz Fb, the port's output goes out of phase with the driver, hence the 24dB per octave drop in output.
Excursion much below Fb is just wasting power.
A HP filter should be applied below Fb to limit excursion to around the same below as above.
6.5mm excursion at 38.5Hz should do ~ 102dB with ~100 watts, should be nearing ~13mm (around 108dB) at 400 watts.
Should be around 120dB with four cabinets ~ 38.5Hz, 116@30 Hz.
You could get a lot more "bang for the buck" moving the Fb up to 32Hz or so.
Yes pretty much
Sims at 33Hz port show a hump over 50Hz. But yes about a 109dB flatish with 100dB at 20Hz with current tune and power. I just don’t know if this can be considered loud or excessive?
Filters are there in the sim for a cut at 20Hz and 3dB boost at 90Hz but not active in the Xmax graph as I wanted to show raw driver Xmax at full peak rating
I have been assured that the peak ratings play well as in a 1200wrms amp is within range of the driver rating with music. But the person advising couldn’t say how dub music basslines would go at full peak ratings. House and hip hop have been told would be fine and used as such at shows
My apologies Art. I have been a bit pressed for time to prepare details or actually settle on making anything with these drivers. Dread the thought of more weeks of modeling for maybe the unattainable for another failed project
This for me is recreational. With leftover pocket money bit by bit every week with paypal pay in four type things. But a serious effort
Please see the project thread for these drivers in multi way. I’ll attach serious sim results in there later today
Excessive for me in home is > 120 dB (SPL meter limit) as my dual 15" corner loaded subs from the corner horn system tuned to 14 Hz making do as a stereo system shook my 'floating floor' house enough to 'rain' the ceiling and its stored contents down on us during a U-571 BD depth charge scene.
Note that these were peak with a 105 dB/LP average, which for most music is too loud for most home apps including mine except for the occasional 'crank it up' for a well done R&R recording or anything Pink Floyd and similar 😉.
Otherwise, 'excessive' is the > ~140 dB I measured using a calibrated industrial SLM, the loudness of a huge steam locomotive passenger train flying past me at ~80 mph ~25 ft away.
No clue about nowadays, but way back in my youth, the nightclubs I frequented averaged ~110 dB IIRC, too loud for me to carry on any kind of conversation.
Thank you Great Man for giving me some context to work with. That gives me some hope that my SPL predictions in WinISD for one cab may just be sufficient to use them as all-rounders then for either HT and karaoke on the boat or some small DJ gigs and the girls music
Please see the build attempt in the multi-way section for further progress on this. The initial pair of PRO-ZT69s just arrived today
Interesting that a distributor can provide that information but the manufacturer can't.
Excursion (one way): 25mm
https://bigjeffaudio.com/products/ds18-elite-z-12-1500-watts-dual-voice-coil-4-ohm-subwoofer-zr12-4d
Does not say linear excursion (Xmax) or excursion before damage (Xlim, Xmech).
The ZR12.4D surround looks like it could go 25mm one way..
What sort of noise does it make in free air when reaching 50mm peak to peak at 28Hz?
We will find out soon enough. I have new hope for her now that she is kicking. I also need to stop getting distracted and find a driver for the dubwoofer, m running out of time. This one covers the low end well enough but louder in the same size volume would be better