Back to the roots!

[Guerilla]

@Kwesi Im sorry if I was unclear.

I simply offer to gift you one w21 so you can experiment with it before buying. That would require you sending me your address in a PM.
I dont need it and wont use it since its sibling had a horrible accident during me changing residence.
I was a bit confused by the whole "back to the root" thing centered about a certain middbass in a two way. It just didnt compute for me how to honor the latters with different drivers in a 3 ways. Are 2x6" or single 8 inch time-typical for your youth?
I must have missed something or miss-read sorry!
3 ways with real bass drivers were typical of my younger years unless you lived in a small room or had a limited budget. Friends bought Dali 2 and Dali 3 but they were sensible choices. Not what we drooled over.
A classic back to the roots but updated to todays standards and theory would in my opinion be "the monkey coffin speaker?" that came out of a very active thread here on diyaudio last year.
Cheers!

 

[mayhem13]

Thanks for all your thoughtful advices, suggestions and offers! 🙂

@Guerilla: thanks for you advices and offers, but this is all a bit confusing what you write...

I once build these fat boys few years ago with Faital 18FH500:
View attachment 1261776
They were nice and dynamic, but I never needed and used the extensive headroom. Luckily I was able to sell the cabinets and woofers together for a fair price.

The other speakers beside are my "Scandinavian Connections" I'm working on since 2015 iteratively, They are my refencences and will stay forever, usually placed in my home office and sometimes in my living room, e.g. for comparisons.

View attachment 1261781 View attachment 1261785 View attachment 1261780

With the MkV iteration I won IGDH DIY contest in 2019, on the right is the current MkVIII with 2x 26W Discovery in 65l CB, SB15NBAC and Seas TAC/GB on Hypex FA123, woofers an mid with bucking magnets, mid an tweeter with serial notches on breakup resonances. They are electroacoustic microscopes and can do the dissapear trick impressingly well, very insensitive to placing playing confident in my 40m² living room as well as in my 11m² office without getting boomy. Hard to beat for my taste and the best speakers I ever build and had.



I already have some Idea that points exactly in that direction, but this may come some day as another project with Bliesma T25A, Kartesian Mid120, Hypex FA503 I already own and use in my main living room system, planning also with 2x 22W Discovery in CB for the woofer section to get more dynamic headroom than now but keeping the speakers compact:

View attachment 1261764View attachment 1261765



This would be another option I'm pondering around as an alternative to the CAD concept above for my living room main system. I'm thinking about "The Base" with two Faital 10RS430 in a very compact ~50l CB housing, the mentioned FA503 and a 4pole Speakon connection enabling the use of various tops with different driver combinations.



Thanks for the hint. I've also made good experience supporting the woofer and mid magnets to the rear wall of the cabin. Did no exact measurements, but by laying on my hand I observed the vibrations of the baffle at elevated levels were significantly reduced, and the sound became more clear.



I've only heard the "cheap" Vifa/Discovery ring radiators till now for some times, I found them pretty clear, transparent and neutral but always a bit lame and boring on the upper end as mentioned before. Do you have experience with the more expensive Illuminator/Revelator ring radiators in comparison?



Yep, this is exaclty what the intended build is about. No big main endgame system and no research project, just a cute traditional floorstander with nice looks and hopefully sweet Revelator sound. Permanent location may be in the Guest/TV room with ~14m² and limited space for placing. So one 8" is more than sufficient. Nevertheless, I want to do all basic things right and choose the drivers wisely.

Best regards
Peter

Yes the SS R3004 is a pretty not bad tweeter IMO for the $$$…….and so is the SB29……I don’t think you’d find either RR boring.

 

[Bon]

Consider a modular build approach, separating the bass/midbass from the mid/tweeter……reduced resonance bleeding into the mids and highs and easier to control bass cab enclosure resonance with the shorter panel lengths. More manageable to build, finish, move and set up. The mid/high seperate enclosure also allows for less costly and troublesome prototyping if you decide on different drivers with different sizes……even down the road for a total redo…..only redo the top.

A few iterations with various SB Acoustics drivers in the top box before settling on the final choice. Active crossover with DSP.

 

[Kwesi]

Im sorry if I was unclear.
I simply offer to gift you one w21 so you can experiment with it before buying. That would require you sending me your address in a PM.
I dont need it and wont use it since its sibling had a horrible accident during me changing residence.

That's very kind of you, thanks!

But I'm rethinking a bit the requirements to the woofer section at the moment, as you all have made my mouth water to go a bit larger. Good (and also not that cheap) Scan Speak drivers may deserve it to go a bit more serious. Sneaking around 10" options now, solution space is wider then ever. Will make more simulations and thougths regarding drivers, tunings and baffle shapes...

Are 2x6" or single 8 inch time-typical for your youth?
I must have missed something or miss-read sorry!

No. Typical for my youth is something like this, could be found in every middle class household living room back then, and in the rooms of friends and classmates who have attached some importance to their stereos:

Typical reference speakers in the magazines were e.g. like these:

But my personal "back to the roots" is aiming more to the sound of that 15W/XT LR2 2-way from my 1st post, not so to the general looks of speakers from that time...

Was able to make a good deal yesterday, so mid and tweeter are fixed now:

https://compacbel.be/ has lots of Scan Speak drivers for reduced price at the moment (not often the case), and I subscribed to the newsletter that gave a 15% discount code additionally.

 

[Kwesi]

Nice drivers:

Consider a modular build approach, separating the bass/midbass from the mid/tweeter……reduced resonance bleeding into the mids and highs and easier to control bass cab enclosure resonance with the shorter panel lengths. More manageable to build, finish, move and set up. The mid/high seperate enclosure also allows for less costly and troublesome prototyping if you decide on different drivers with different sizes……even down the road for a total redo…..only redo the top. I could state with full confidence that you’d likely never feel a need to redo the bass section of the Dayton drivers.

I've been mulling over a lot now how to proceed, and the modular approach comes more and more in favor. 👍

I have some speaker in my living room that could be replaced, as I already thought about upgrading it with 2x 8" woofers + new floorstander enclosure. I would take the Hypex FA503 then and integrate it to the woofer section, with a 4-pole Speakon to connect and supply the mid-high units also active.

I could try nicely flavoured tops then: 🙂

1) a smooth one with the just delivered D3004/602200 and 15M/8631G00, back tiltet and more narrow, faceted baffle. If I want, I may later buy a R3004/602200 to compare the dome vs. ring radiator type.

2) a clear one, when I just put my standmounts with Seas DXT and SB15NBAC35 onto the woofer section enclosure and take the passive xover beside. I have a TAC/GB here in another speaker, that is a drop in replacement of the DXT mechanically and could be a nice experiment. I would also like to build an ASR Directiva R2 enclosure for the drivers by time.

3) a dry one, with the T25A and Kartesian Mid120_vHE from the donor living room speakers, on a wide, rounded baffle. Eventually I can make the rebate of the mid compatible to Bliesma M74 type, outer diameter is the same. When I might have some money in a few years or so for them, I may try a M74A or M74P for ultra clear or ultra dry sound. Or I just try another T25 flavor like S, or B when available again.

4) Would be great if the woofers run up to ~1kHz, then I may try just putting a cool looking larger horn with 1" compression driver <1kHz on the woofer section.

...and maybe more, but this should fit my hobby ambitions for the next years.


For the woofer section I decided to take 2x 8" 8 Ohm parallel in 40-50l CB for both. Past experiences with different woofer size classes in my living room let me think this should be pretty enough and can go really loud when you take capable drivers. Planned with 2x 8" for the upgrade of the donor speaker in the living room also. 500W of one FA503 channel shall than be enough to push a pair.


TheBase may look like this:

Had following woofers on my list, the best 8 inch woofer thread also helped me alot:

Value class:
Dayton RS225
SB Acoustics SB23NBACS45
Scan Speak 22W/8534G00
Failtal 8RS350
--> would take the Scan Speak. I like the 26W very much, and the 22W has nice measurements and simulates well. Price here is 100-120.- €

Performance Class:
Scan Speak 21W/8555-10
Wavecor WF223BD02
Dayton RSS210HO-8
SB Satori WO24P
Visaton TIW200XS
PHL 2730
--> Wavecor is favourite, shows flawless measurements in the german DIY hifi magazines, really wide range and low distortion, very high Qms. Price is around 240.- €

Expensive Class:
Scan Speak 22W/8857T00
Scan Speak 22W/8851T00
Seas L22ROY2
Wavecor SW223BD03
SB Satori WO24TX-8
--> Seas is too much subwoofer like, Wavecore also for my taste and very expensive here, Satori is ugly. The paper Scan Speak shows breakup at 800Hz with distortion. Aluminum cone Revelator looks nice, very low distortion motor, high Qms, capable stroke. Worth the ~320.-€ ?

Purify is out due to price and ugly surround.

So mind says Wavecor WF223BD02, heart says Scan Speak 22W/8857T00. When I imagine the possible mid-high combinations I listed above, the Scan Speak fits to all of them somehow from just the feeling and looks. Probably I could live also well with the 22W Discoverys but if I put a bit money by side for the next month I could afford the 1000-1200 for the Wavecors or Revelators.

Someone experience with the Scan Speak 22W/8857T00? Manufacturer datasheet shows issue in FR at 500Hz, but in german HH magazine measurements it shows flawless performance >1kHz: https://www.aos-lautsprecher.de/wp-content/uploads/22W8857T00-HH-05-2016.pdf (distortion stated as 80dB is wrong, it's at 90dB...). Also TSPs are different between datasheet and magazine measurements, the latter leading to larger enclosures?

Thanks for helping me sorting my thoughts, best regards
Peter

 

[wolf_teeth]

The 8857 is worth every penny, and is the best 9" class driver I've listened to. It was used in the Cantilena by Rick Craig and Paul K. Marvelous woofer it is.

 

[tktran303]

If you're going to go with something 280mm wide, can you shoe horn in a pair of 26W/8857? Sealed EQed...

 

[Kwesi]

The 8857 is worth every penny, and is the best 9" class driver I've listened to. It was used in the Cantilena by Rick Craig and Paul K. Marvelous woofer it is.

Cantilena is with Morel 2" middome or? So xover to the woofer was around 800Hz-1kHz? Good to hear the Revelator can deliver that, would enable the option with the horn! Also HH magazine recommends usage up to 1k in accordance to their measurements.

@tktran303 : The 26W/8857 may be also great driver but no, the overall enclosure shall be sized and designed for two capable 8" in 40-50l CB and a chamber for the Hypex. That shall be the right overall woofer system size for supporting smaller, single mids and 1" tweeters, and for my needs regarding living room application.

Thanks all for feedback!
Best Regards
Peter

 

[wolf_teeth]

1kHz to the MD55, yes.

I don't think I'm mistaken, but I believe the 10" has a different number than 8857. It is close to that though.

 

[PKAudio]

8867

 

[Bon]

I have some speaker in my living room that could be replaced, as I already thought about upgrading it with 2x 8" woofers + new floorstander enclosure. I would take the Hypex FA503 then and integrate it to the woofer section, with a 4-pole Speakon to connect and supply the mid-high units also active.

@Kwesi
8-pole speakon connectors are a great solution for 3 or 4 way active speakers. Decent quality 8-wire and 4-wire cables are readily available from Live Sound and PA suppliers.

For the woofer section I decided to take 2x 8" 8 Ohm parallel in 40-50l CB for both. Past experiences with different woofer size classes in my living room let me think this should be pretty enough and can go really loud when you take capable drivers.

If you are considering a separate dedicated sealed woofer, then you might want to go all out for bass quality.
You are already attempting to minimise the harmful effects of bass cabinet resonances on the other driver performance by using a separate enclosure. You might consider opposed side mounted woofers in reaction cancelling mode. This can be achieved by connecting the woofers together with threaded steel rods through the bolt 8 holes. Tension them up carefully to equal tension with a torque wrench.
It really does works to keep the driver induced cabinet vibration down. Don’t skimp on the bracing because you still have to deal with internal pressure. A benefit of side mounting is that you can keep both drivers close to the floor which reduces floor bounce and enhances the low bass boundary effect.

This approach does require the bass low pass to be lower than usual, say < 100 Hz, where the bass in non-directional. This will then require a wide pass-band (100 Hz-2.5 kHz) for the mid driver in a 3-way, which is not easy to find such a capable driver. It will require very good power handling and low distortion for the crucial mid-range. There are mid-woofers with the required power handling, and I have tried many of them. I never found any I liked as well as a dedicated mid-range (with limited power handling). This may bring 4-way into the discussion as you could use a mid-woofer as a filler driver (100-400 Hz). This only makes practical sense with dsp active crossovers, to properly integrate the drivers.
Also a low crossover bass enclosure makes sub drivers preferable. For example paralleled SB23MFCL45-8 vs SB23NRXS45-8

For diy I would place cost well down on my list of qualities to use in judging driver suitability. Driver technology is quite mature and you have to try hard to design a totally incompetent driver. More relevant is picking the driver suitable for the application, which requires experience and/or good advice.

 

[Kwesi]

Hi, thanks for your advice with the reaction cancelling approach! But I aim for usual xover frequencies between 200-600Hz with the mentioned mids a few posts before, maybe with compromises even up to 1kHz for the idea with the horn. So the woofers shall cover a wide bandwidth and be placed on the front just below the mid, and no pure subwoofer drivers wanted here. Revelator 22W has already +/- 9mm xmax but keeps low mass, low loss and low inductivity. No 4-way, my Hypex has 3 channels and the speakers shall stay compact. 4 way is nice when you want to go big, or have 3-way floorstanders + subwoofer array. But 3-Way is just suficcient for that size class and concept I want to have.

 

[hifijim]

So if i understand correctly, you have settled on the concept of two 8" woofers per side, but you have not yet selected the woofers.

You have not yet decided on midrange and tweeter drivers, but you have a short list of drivers under consideration.

yes?

 

[Kwesi]

I already own the driver sets for the 3 possible top enclosures I listed:
1) D3004/602200 and 15M/8631G00
2) Seas DXT and SB15NBAC35
3) Bliesma T25A and Kartesian Mid120_vHE

Target is to put them all in (different) small enclosures < 8l easy to store and exchange.
I also already own the 2x Hypex Fusion FA503. Therefore the modular approach with a separate woofer enclosure with the Hypex and 2x 8" to "serve them all". Just change the little top part (Speakon connection) and select/upload another Hypex setup.

So the gerneral concept is decided, woofers are missing and have to be selected and ordered. Enclosures have to be build then, of course.

 

[hifijim]

Ah yes I understand. Good approach.

 

[Rokytheman]

@Kwesi: Inspiring thread.

I have similar project in mind and decided to buy 4xDayton RS225 alu 8 ohm. They Will get 40 liters each and have LT to taste. I expect good results.

Midrange I could not decide, so I Will start with this one:
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/peerless-by-tymphany-fsl-0512r01-08.html

(Some speculate it is same drivers as in Kii Audio Three)

I like the even not rising response and from paper alone, I think with some feltpads or edge coating response Will be Great.

 

[Jungstar]

Troels Gravesen (who scanspeak on several occasions have hired to make demo speakers for their drivers ) has a design that uses almost all your desired drivers. D3004/660000 15M/8631G00 22W/4851T00

Might be worth a look, but offcourse I get the fun of designing your own.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Revelator-851.htm

 

[Kwesi]

Hi, thanks for your suggestion! I'm aware of Troels work and these speakers.

This is how I will proceed:

Thread 'Peter's modular loudspeaker platform'

2024-12-16 11:47 pm

Hey all,

I've pondered around now since over a year what to build next.
Currently I'm well equipped with speakers in two rooms of our apartment; one system in my ~11m² home office and the other in the ~40m² living room.

This is the setup in the living room:

Schnuckelchen with Bliesma T25A, Kartesian Mid120_vHE, Satori WO24P driven by a Hypex FA503.
We want to renovate the living room somewhen next year. The low shelf will be removed then, and the TV will go on the wall with a swivel mount. So there will be space again for floorstanders.

And this in my...

• Kwesi
• Replies: 77
• Forum: Multi-Way

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