As for loudspeakers, it already goes wrong at the basic component level.
Even as a professional developer, it's sometimes impossible to get proper data from drivers (distortion, Klippel etc).
Fundamental to even start any project.
Which is insane, since ALL manufacturers have this data.
You will be surprised how often I get the response that they believe in listening and therefor don't provide or even have any data.
Which is 100% bs, since it directly implies that they just (randomly) put stuff together in the hope it performs well?
Obviously that is not true nor the way any engineering company works.
It surprises me that no one ever sued the living crap out of it.
But like you already said, it's about who has the biggest wallet.
It's not ineptness. Corporations run the US and the people in Washington are puppets.
Laws in the EU are much more oriented towards protecting the consumer. Example here in the US "high fructose corn syrup" has pretty much replaced sugar. In the EU (and Mexico too) it is forbidden to put that poison in any food product.
Laws in the EU are much more oriented towards protecting the consumer. Example here in the US "high fructose corn syrup" has pretty much replaced sugar. In the EU (and Mexico too) it is forbidden to put that poison in any food product.
Fair... my point was that we as a society of lazy muppets are inept, not just the FTC. We have have power to change it (however slow that change may come about)... we allow it to persist.
That's about as close to the edge of a political post as I'll walk...
tl;dr - I think we agree. 👍
I agree, except about the power to change it. It's degraded rapidly in my lifetime (especially the last 15 years) and IMO it's out of our hands and beyond fixing.
My career in finance is the perfect metaphor for the decline of the US. I worked for the US brokerage division of a large French bank. I had a stellar reputation and was very well known in the industry. My reputation was an asset to the firm; just the mention of my name struck fear into the hearts of corporate crooks.
People I worked with went to prison for all kinds of fraud. I was always the one who made sure everything was done strictly according to the rules. My bosses loved me; I was the company pit bull. Then came 2009. There was no longer any need for honest people; in fact they became a liability. They tried to get me to quit. They started to take responsibility away from me to the point where I didn't have much to do at work. Some of my fellow employees were subject to the same thing and morale was zero. I made them lay me off, made them pay me severance. Now I'm virtually blackballed from the financial services industry, I have come to find out.
Crime doesn't pay? Maybe once upon a time but now it's de rigueur in the financial industry. But the company folded a couple years later and all my money vaporized with it (stupid me).
At least I still have my integrity. And I'm not in prison!
People I worked with went to prison for all kinds of fraud. I was always the one who made sure everything was done strictly according to the rules. My bosses loved me; I was the company pit bull. Then came 2009. There was no longer any need for honest people; in fact they became a liability. They tried to get me to quit. They started to take responsibility away from me to the point where I didn't have much to do at work. Some of my fellow employees were subject to the same thing and morale was zero. I made them lay me off, made them pay me severance. Now I'm virtually blackballed from the financial services industry, I have come to find out.
Crime doesn't pay? Maybe once upon a time but now it's de rigueur in the financial industry. But the company folded a couple years later and all my money vaporized with it (stupid me).
At least I still have my integrity. And I'm not in prison!
We probably need to let Jan get his fantastic thread back on topic. However, just to end (my side of) a productive and fun conversation...
I know exactly what you mean... and I'm just poking fun... but...
This statement...
Directly followed by this statement...
I know exactly what you mean... and I'm just poking fun... but...
This statement...
Directly followed by this statement...
Seems to force a contradiction or some kind of cognitive dissonance.
Seems to force a contradiction or some kind of cognitive dissonance
Maybe you've never worked in business. I kept my desk in order. My clients were always represented fairly and equitably. But I couldn't control what happened across the hall. I wasn't CEO. I had access to financial accounts of hundreds of banks and corporations and the authority to modify those accounts. There's a right way and a wrong way. People with a similar position as mine were diverting contracts into the wrong accounts intentionally. I wasn't the first person to know about it.
Anyway, back to the original topic. Either you get it or you don't.
^ Good grief... do I need to spell it out? I guess if you have to explain the joke, it's a bad joke. That's on me.
I said I was poking fun. I said I knew what you meant...
However, one of two things cannot be true at the same time.
1) People you worked with going to prison for fraud.
2) You making sure that everything (including the work of those that went to prison for fraud) was done strictly according to the rules.
OK... let's move along, shall we?
Edited to add - Well, I suppose if your internal rules were a bit suspect... both could be true... my fault.
I said I was poking fun. I said I knew what you meant...
However, one of two things cannot be true at the same time.
1) People you worked with going to prison for fraud.
2) You making sure that everything (including the work of those that went to prison for fraud) was done strictly according to the rules.
OK... let's move along, shall we?
Edited to add - Well, I suppose if your internal rules were a bit suspect... both could be true... my fault.
You're being pedantic. And you're pointing the finger at the wrong guy.
There was soooo much work keeping stuff straight. Anything that could go wrong would go wrong, and big money was on the line. We had an army of lawyers - a whole floor of a big corporate building, that sat around while all this stuff happened. I had supervisors that stood by and received sentences ranging from probation to a few months in prison.
I was just a foot soldier. I'm proud that I walked away without a criminal record. Lord knows I was exposed to enormous personal risk.
There was soooo much work keeping stuff straight. Anything that could go wrong would go wrong, and big money was on the line. We had an army of lawyers - a whole floor of a big corporate building, that sat around while all this stuff happened. I had supervisors that stood by and received sentences ranging from probation to a few months in prison.
I was just a foot soldier. I'm proud that I walked away without a criminal record. Lord knows I was exposed to enormous personal risk.
^ It was a JOKE. I said it was a joke. I explained the joke, I admitted it was a poor joke. It was in no way intended as a slight toward you. Apologies.
Can we please move along...
Can we please move along...
When was the last time you saw a car ad with actual data, except for 'recoup your freedom' or 'the road is yours' .
Exception is E-cars that seem to compete on single charge range, but those are measured under circumstances that are extremely rare in normal use.
Jan
I can manufacture and sell audio cables tomorrow and there's not a single autority that wants to know if they are any good.
I can put anything I want in the advertising and it's up to a customer to proof I'm wrong.
Jan
Ehm many if not like basically all of them?
Even a car with a combustion engine has data like mileage, power, torque etc etc
Not only that, but car manufactures also have reports showing where they got that information from.
(you can find those on their website these days)
Like I said, often these are pretty biased and heavily idealized under the perfect conditions, but it's at least a lot more than nothing at all.
From a legal point of view you only have to prove your claim, NOT if the claim is useful or not.
That is most definitely NOT how it works in the EU and many other parts of the world.
Luckily!
Consumer protection organizations are pretty strict with this as well.
There are pretty hefty fines for misleading consumers (you also read about this in the news quite often).
That it still happens is a totally different story, but it's most definitely not the way you just described.
https://commission.europa.eu/law/la...ding-and-comparative-advertising-directive_en
I would highly recommend diving a bit deeper into this, because if you think that you can put anything in an advert, there is a lot of misunderstanding.
It may be the splitting of hairs / pedantry, but it differs slightly in the USA.
In the USA, you only need a basis upon which to reasonably substantiate the claim. Proof is a much higher standard.
To me, it's a difference with an important distinction.
The basic statute enforced by the FTC, Section 5(a) of the FTC Act, empowers the agency to investigate and prevent unfair methods of competition, and unfair or deceptive acts or practices affecting commerce. This creates the Agency's two primary missions: protecting competition and protecting consumers.
Generally ... but not always... any claims issues I've seen were investigated and ruled upon based on that word... "deceptive" that comes straight from the statute.
If you have a reasonable basis upon which to substantiate your claim, you've cleared the bar. It's tough for anyone to cry deception. Also, it's more reasonable for businesses (less costly). Anyway, that's my anecdotal direct experience, not legal advice. I am most assuredly not a lawyer.
Tying it back to Jan's conversation and the theme of the thread ... if every company were required to clear the bar for a reasonable substantiation for their claim(s)... I don't think a lot of myths would start in advertising.
Sadly, b/c a few bad apples were able to walk all over the system, I don't trust anyone. One guy gets away with it... then the competitors need to resort to the same dirty tricks in order to remain competitive. Sure... that's a bit of an exaggeration, but it's not too far from reality.
I said, in an ad.
I understand the role of the FTC in the USA.
Understaffed, underfunded and no time to chase a cable peddler who, maybe, put something in his flyer he can't substantiate.
He has no worries whatsoever.
But hey, you can keep dreaming of a perfect world!
Jan
Advertising in the US is extremely annoying, insulting, and just ridiculous. Television is unwatchable now, partially because of advertising. You have to be very stupid to not be annoyed.
A common meme now is the stupid guy. CLIFF NOTES: You'll never sell me anything typecasting me as an idiot. Now we have guys on TV that can't even change the furnace filter; they have to call a technician and pay big bucks for that. News flash eggheads: Not only can I change the furnace filter, but I can change the whole damn furnace. Aholes.
I solicited bids to have siding installed on my house. The salesmen they sent talked to me like I was 5 years old. No sale eggheads. I planned the job myself, arraigned for materials to be delivered, and hired semi-skilled laborers to help me. I got it done for less that $3,000. Lowest bit I received from the egghead crowd was $18,000. Take that eggheads.
A common meme now is the stupid guy. CLIFF NOTES: You'll never sell me anything typecasting me as an idiot. Now we have guys on TV that can't even change the furnace filter; they have to call a technician and pay big bucks for that. News flash eggheads: Not only can I change the furnace filter, but I can change the whole damn furnace. Aholes.
I solicited bids to have siding installed on my house. The salesmen they sent talked to me like I was 5 years old. No sale eggheads. I planned the job myself, arraigned for materials to be delivered, and hired semi-skilled laborers to help me. I got it done for less that $3,000. Lowest bit I received from the egghead crowd was $18,000. Take that eggheads.
If you want any chance to judge a bid you need to have at least some understanding of what is involved in the work.
You don't need to know all the detailed ins and outs, but you must have an overview.
If you are totally ignorant on the work to be done, you're lost and will be had.
Jan
You don't need to know all the detailed ins and outs, but you must have an overview.
If you are totally ignorant on the work to be done, you're lost and will be had.
Jan
Obviously I know what's involved. I also know that a licensed and insured business can't come close to matching my cost. That being said, if a contractor that I had confidence in submitted a reasonable bid (I know they have to make a profit) then I would have accepted that bid.
I don't think the salesmen know how to talk to a halfway intelligent person. Their business model depends on the customer being a moron. If that's what they're teaching kids in college now, it does not bode well for the future.
The job came out nice, but it was a big hassle with a few snags. I installed cement fiberboard plank siding. I had to look at tutorials and buy about $500 worth of tools. It seems that very few contractors are able to work with cement fiberboard, and the few that do enjoy a seller's market.
I don't think the salesmen know how to talk to a halfway intelligent person. Their business model depends on the customer being a moron. If that's what they're teaching kids in college now, it does not bode well for the future.
The job came out nice, but it was a big hassle with a few snags. I installed cement fiberboard plank siding. I had to look at tutorials and buy about $500 worth of tools. It seems that very few contractors are able to work with cement fiberboard, and the few that do enjoy a seller's market.