I tried importing your file into Hornresp but we are not on the same version. No matter, the performance you describe above is not much better than the much simpler BR alignment; even though it is huge it could be built pretty easily using large diameter sonotube.
Correct, main difference can be greater mid-band efficiency with the various type horns combined with higher peak power handling, so just depends on the performance needs of the app.
Hmm, don't recall ever having any HR compatibility issues, so please post it here: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/hornresp.119854/unread
Hi GM,
To import the record you posted requires Hornresp to be at Version 54.10 or later (ID = 54.10).
Deude_Mann must be using a version earlier than that - and is missing out on at least the following additional features 🙂.
Version 54.10
Hornresp record export file format changed
On / off switch added to active filter wizard
Navigation keys used with 3-D wireframe view tool
Version 54.20
TL design tool
Currently saved filter settings exported automatically
Version 54.30
Coverage half-angle and Fta in Obl horn segment wizard
Tapered transmission lines and usable bandwidth in Method BS 2022
Additional alignment tables in Method MJK 2021
Horn segment wizard parameter descriptions
Help file conversion to text file note
Version 54.40
Ripole with odd number of drivers, non-parallel sides and manual path length
Expanding transmission lines in Method MJK 2006 and Method MJK 2021
Variable sound velocity value
Version 54.50
Pressure response and directivity pattern in ripole loudspeaker wizard
Version 54.60
CH2 and CH3 compound horns
Version 54.70
Automatically calculated BP4 dimensions
Version 55.00
Augmented passive radiator loudspeaker
Version 55.10
APR displacement chart
QL values permanently saved
Method MJK 2021 alignments on loudspeaker wizard caption line
Closed box and bass reflex design tools
Version 55.20
Lpt given Fb option added to Lpt calculate parameter tool as default
BP4 wizard auto design feature enhanced
Leach alignment option added to closed box design tool
B4, QB3 and C4 alignment options added to bass reflex design tool
Kind regards,
David
To import the record you posted requires Hornresp to be at Version 54.10 or later (ID = 54.10).
Deude_Mann must be using a version earlier than that - and is missing out on at least the following additional features 🙂.
Version 54.10
Hornresp record export file format changed
On / off switch added to active filter wizard
Navigation keys used with 3-D wireframe view tool
Version 54.20
TL design tool
Currently saved filter settings exported automatically
Version 54.30
Coverage half-angle and Fta in Obl horn segment wizard
Tapered transmission lines and usable bandwidth in Method BS 2022
Additional alignment tables in Method MJK 2021
Horn segment wizard parameter descriptions
Help file conversion to text file note
Version 54.40
Ripole with odd number of drivers, non-parallel sides and manual path length
Expanding transmission lines in Method MJK 2006 and Method MJK 2021
Variable sound velocity value
Version 54.50
Pressure response and directivity pattern in ripole loudspeaker wizard
Version 54.60
CH2 and CH3 compound horns
Version 54.70
Automatically calculated BP4 dimensions
Version 55.00
Augmented passive radiator loudspeaker
Version 55.10
APR displacement chart
QL values permanently saved
Method MJK 2021 alignments on loudspeaker wizard caption line
Closed box and bass reflex design tools
Version 55.20
Lpt given Fb option added to Lpt calculate parameter tool as default
BP4 wizard auto design feature enhanced
Leach alignment option added to closed box design tool
B4, QB3 and C4 alignment options added to bass reflex design tool
Kind regards,
David
Ummm... I am on version 55.20. Normally I update soon after the next release is available. This version hit about 5 days ago IIRC.
At any rate I was able import the file so I am all good.
BTW Thanks David for this great program!
At any rate I was able import the file so I am all good.
BTW Thanks David for this great program!
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GM when I wrote that the BR was close to the same performance, I was comparing a two driver BR to your single driver design without realizing it. So I changed it to two drivers and readjusted everything in the loudspeaker wizard. The attached is the result and it looks pretty darn good.
Driver power/Re input incorrect?, ditto usable peak power and for dual driver ideally need to slightly alter the driver location...........anyway, no time now to 'fiddle' with it..........
GM no worries. Previously I slightly tweaked L12 and L23 and was not able to completely get rid of the small peak at ~73 Hz. Stuffing did not improve things.
Booger Welds... Adding your revisions, and looking at the revised schematic, it looks like this is now a tapped horn of some sort? Before, GM's version was just a tapered TL, correct?
Booger Welds... Adding your revisions, and looking at the revised schematic, it looks like this is now a tapped horn of some sort? Before, GM's version was just a tapered TL, correct?
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Adding the blue box highlights to the sim allows the adjustable ‘QL‘ function to appear in the lower left corner. Otherwise everything is exaggerated (lossless) and the roll off/knee shape around fundametal is often very deceiving (or disappointing, in reality once built(?)).
its the same exact sim(all of the added port/offset info is zeroed out).
its the same exact sim(all of the added port/offset info is zeroed out).
Yeah, I just 'run' numbers for the most basic of box alignments as a frame of reference, but if I were still designing for an app it would at its most basic include significant Qts' increase, typically at least 2x Qes from back when amps were high output impedance by design, which totally changes it.
The adjustable "QL" function looks useful, but you reverted to 1.0 Pi (quarter space) instead of 2 (half space), and are using 2volts input rather than 2.83 on a nominal 8 ohm load (series drivers).
Product number 5520-231113 was actually released on 13 November 2023 🙂.
Just to clarify, the release date is included in the product number, which has the format:
vvvv-yymmdd
where:
vvvv = version number, yy = year, mm = month, dd = day
Hmm, there's been so many 'GM' sims 'flying' back n' forth and now a bit confused plus just noticed that a dual driver one has the wrong 'Re' @ 6.4 ohm s/b @ 7.4 ohm for dual drivers in series plus I 'see' Bw's got a 2S drivers with 3.7 ohms that s/b 7.4 ohms.........
Re my simple single driver, folded horn for folks wanting a wider BW than a TH allows is just that, so no clue why/how it's 'becoming'? a TH with a Bw? tweak?
This is a timely thread for me. I bought a UM15-22 woofer from Parts Express a couple weeks ago and am in the process of building a sealed box for it. The box is 4.4 cubic feet before the woofer and bracing. I have put in 3 pounds of Acouta Stuff. I have a DATs woofer tester and just measured the woofer this morning. Yesterday, I put 20 hz through it for an hour. Today I put 20 hz into it for a few minutes, and then measured twice. The first time was right after the break in signal and the second time was a few minutes later. The voice coils are wired in series for a nominal 4 ohms. Here are my results:
Re = 3.669, 3.621 ohms
Fs = 31.9 , 32.3 hz
Qts = .7403 , .7326
Qes = 1.004 , 1.0
Qms = 2.819 , 2.736
Le = .3858 . .384 mh
Vas = 1.887 , 2.277 cubic feet
Spl = 84.27 , 85.26 (1w/1m)
Mms = 331.5 gms
I expect the Fs to drop a little after using it for a while. The DATs test was done in my basement, which is 10 degrees colder than the living room. The results are pretty close to the published specs, except for the Vas, which is listed in the published specs as 3.6 cubic feet, and the Le, which is listed as .8 mh. Hope this helps with your calculations.
Re = 3.669, 3.621 ohms
Fs = 31.9 , 32.3 hz
Qts = .7403 , .7326
Qes = 1.004 , 1.0
Qms = 2.819 , 2.736
Le = .3858 . .384 mh
Vas = 1.887 , 2.277 cubic feet
Spl = 84.27 , 85.26 (1w/1m)
Mms = 331.5 gms
I expect the Fs to drop a little after using it for a while. The DATs test was done in my basement, which is 10 degrees colder than the living room. The results are pretty close to the published specs, except for the Vas, which is listed in the published specs as 3.6 cubic feet, and the Le, which is listed as .8 mh. Hope this helps with your calculations.
Thanks for that Decker!
As far as the back and forth on some of the variables, like 2pi vs 1pi, 2 drivers or one driver, etc... The switching was OK for me, no problem, I just switched it back based on what I was interested in. GM and others were helping me assess the feasibility of a TH for this specific driver.
Why did I switch variables? I am designing for a specific placement, that is floor/wall corner loaded and I noticed for the TH it made a difference in the response shape. So for the fine tweaking I used 1pi for my analysis. For the one driver vs two, when the TH looked like it was a bad choice, the discussion switched to a tapered TL in which case I went to two drivers instead of one.
FWIW:
As far as the back and forth on some of the variables, like 2pi vs 1pi, 2 drivers or one driver, etc... The switching was OK for me, no problem, I just switched it back based on what I was interested in. GM and others were helping me assess the feasibility of a TH for this specific driver.
Why did I switch variables? I am designing for a specific placement, that is floor/wall corner loaded and I noticed for the TH it made a difference in the response shape. So for the fine tweaking I used 1pi for my analysis. For the one driver vs two, when the TH looked like it was a bad choice, the discussion switched to a tapered TL in which case I went to two drivers instead of one.
FWIW:
- At this point, with these drivers, I am best off with either:
- A large volume sealed with two drivers (for SQ)
- A regular offset TL with sonotube pipes (constant cross section) for greater SPL (at xmax) with maybe a small reduction in SQ at low frequencies.
- The tapered TL (shown last) would also work well, and I developed a folded design for it, but its a monster, about 6 feet long, 4 feet tall, and 2 feet wide. It's a three sheeter (plywood) for sure, maybe four with bracing.
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Hmm, dual driver TH is certainly doable and it's going to be big regardless of pipe design due to its high Qts', though can pare it down some from the 800+ designs done the other day:
Using above specs and ignoring high power robbing thermal, etc., distortion that raises Qts:
T/S max flat alignment (single driver):
Vented net volume (Vb) (L) = 20*64.48*0.73^3.3 = 456.48 L
(Ft^3 = (Vb)/~28.31685)
Vented box tuning (Fb) (Hz) = 0.42*32.3*0.73^-0.96 = 18.35 Hz
F3 (Hz) = 32.3*0.28*0.73^-1.4 = 14.05 Hz
Fhm = 2*32.3/0.73 = 88.49 Hz
(Qts'): (Qts) + any added series resistance (Rs)
In theory, dual driver will be 2*456.48 L, but can be made not much bigger than a single if only wanting a bit more low end and mid-band eff..
Anyway, will post them tomorrow........
Using above specs and ignoring high power robbing thermal, etc., distortion that raises Qts:
T/S max flat alignment (single driver):
Vented net volume (Vb) (L) = 20*64.48*0.73^3.3 = 456.48 L
(Ft^3 = (Vb)/~28.31685)
Vented box tuning (Fb) (Hz) = 0.42*32.3*0.73^-0.96 = 18.35 Hz
F3 (Hz) = 32.3*0.28*0.73^-1.4 = 14.05 Hz
Fhm = 2*32.3/0.73 = 88.49 Hz
(Qts'): (Qts) + any added series resistance (Rs)
In theory, dual driver will be 2*456.48 L, but can be made not much bigger than a single if only wanting a bit more low end and mid-band eff..
Anyway, will post them tomorrow........