Your ears actual dynamic range above 8khz is 95db……you’re not going to hear ANYTHING in a vertical array at address Volume resembling what you suggest
Thanks fellas. Kinda wishing I bought the Faitals. Even with the 12K zingyness. Is there any way I can fix the horizontal of my current rig? I need about 2 or 3 foot at 10 ft distance-ish not my current 6". I guess for a small venue? I'll comb the threads again now the terminology is making more sense. I will look into all the frequency / power shading / rising xo order stuff. I can get some cheap inductor copper from faulty vacuums on the UK version of Craigslist and buy some caps. Any ideas welcome. I'm loathe to buy more drivers as I'd be getting towards wishing I'd bought a 2nd hand Bose and no one wants that haha.
That 4 Ohm reference, it's part of the text in the picture I posted, not my words. 4 ohms is what I have to match the Class D amp. It's also the picture of the 1 solution that won't work for me due to the heavy lifting being done on the centre driver. Thanks for your patience. I'm still catching up on the theory. If I can't win it's gonna have to be Faitals but I'm strapped and moving house soon.
That 4 Ohm reference, it's part of the text in the picture I posted, not my words. 4 ohms is what I have to match the Class D amp. It's also the picture of the 1 solution that won't work for me due to the heavy lifting being done on the centre driver. Thanks for your patience. I'm still catching up on the theory. If I can't win it's gonna have to be Faitals but I'm strapped and moving house soon.
Not if one is looking to cover a regular audience in a room. It might work if they all form a circle and remain equal distance to the speakers 😉.
No need for a tweeter in your application……bandwidth only needs to extend to 10khz and your 9 drivers give you that. That and what Wesayso said.
So... folk circles only then 😱.
Would any of these work to give me even a 2 foot beam at crowd distance?:
a) bending the baffle into a curve and re-housing it curved.
b) slightly separating the 8 drivers into 2 lots of 4 at the mid point.
c) reading every forum about shading, learning all about it and doing some kind of F, P or T shading that will allow near full power use still.
d) shut up about it, wait till I have money (spring) and buy 9 Faitals. This will definitely work... right????
Thanks for all your help. Please pick one 🙂
Would any of these work to give me even a 2 foot beam at crowd distance?:
a) bending the baffle into a curve and re-housing it curved.
b) slightly separating the 8 drivers into 2 lots of 4 at the mid point.
c) reading every forum about shading, learning all about it and doing some kind of F, P or T shading that will allow near full power use still.
d) shut up about it, wait till I have money (spring) and buy 9 Faitals. This will definitely work... right????
Thanks for all your help. Please pick one 🙂
I don't think there will be a large difference in the vertical beam-width of the TC9 vs the Faital.
Check out the thread: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...heir-behavior-through-simple-modeling.388279/ from Speaker Dave for valuable info on shading.
For a shorter array like you are planning, a CBT (curved) array would also provide wider vertical coverage with the appropriate shading.
You could try and learn to use Vituixcad and pick up the starter model from @nc535 to do your own experiments.
Most of the hard labor has been done already, to create a valid (Vituixcad) simulation of the TC9 arrays, pick up the starter project here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-corner-placement.337956/page-28#post-6205129
Check out the thread: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...heir-behavior-through-simple-modeling.388279/ from Speaker Dave for valuable info on shading.
For a shorter array like you are planning, a CBT (curved) array would also provide wider vertical coverage with the appropriate shading.
You could try and learn to use Vituixcad and pick up the starter model from @nc535 to do your own experiments.
Most of the hard labor has been done already, to create a valid (Vituixcad) simulation of the TC9 arrays, pick up the starter project here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-corner-placement.337956/page-28#post-6205129
There is no horizontal beam problem…….if measured on the vertical axis of each driver, the response would be same horizontally.
I think you’re losing sight of the purpose of an array…….it IS NOT intended for home hifi use as there’s a mid to far field transition taking place. The vertical beam height is controlled by the size of the array which eliminates reflections from the two largest, most destructive boundaries…..the floor and the ceiling.
I think you’re losing sight of the purpose of an array…….it IS NOT intended for home hifi use as there’s a mid to far field transition taking place. The vertical beam height is controlled by the size of the array which eliminates reflections from the two largest, most destructive boundaries…..the floor and the ceiling.
In this post: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...range-line-array.242171/page-400#post-7492870 I compare a focused array with a CBT array and my frequency shaded array. Even though all arrays are the large type (25 drivers total), you'll be able to see the differences in vertical pattern control. Clearly a CBT has the widest vertical pattern of them all. That's why I would encourage playing with sims to see what it can bring you.
I guess that post also may show why I'm into tall arrays. The vertical coverage of my frequency shaded array is wide enough to cover seated and standing heights. Seated is configured to be right in the middle of that vertical beam. Even though it might look like a small beam, just figure out what the angle difference is between seated and standing positions at about 3 meter/10 feet. It really does eliminate the vertical reflections of floor and ceiling and with this size array (2.25 meter tall) I'm more than happy with them for home HiFi use 🙂 . EQ is mandatory.
I guess that post also may show why I'm into tall arrays. The vertical coverage of my frequency shaded array is wide enough to cover seated and standing heights. Seated is configured to be right in the middle of that vertical beam. Even though it might look like a small beam, just figure out what the angle difference is between seated and standing positions at about 3 meter/10 feet. It really does eliminate the vertical reflections of floor and ceiling and with this size array (2.25 meter tall) I'm more than happy with them for home HiFi use 🙂 . EQ is mandatory.
Your terminology is inverted- horizontal dispersion is left and right (on the horizon..) vertical dispersion is up and down.
In a simple line array the horizontal dispersion is the same as a single speaker, vertical dispersion is reduced.
Faitals or any other tiny driver appropriate for a "full range" line array will behave the same, though the TC9 off axis dispersion is better than most.
You are underestimating the vertical dispersion- even if it were zero degrees, it would be the length of the line.
The solution to even front to back audience coverage has been around as long as PA systems have been (over 100 years), you elevate the speakers above the audience and point them down.
You could point the bottom few speakers of the array down as in the example above, but probably not needed if your stand is the proper height.
You will need a tilting speaker mount, either DIY or commercial or a dual angle top hat:
Of course, your SX200 (that have +10dB more output than your line arrays..) would benefit from the same treatment.
Previously you suggested your thumped out acoustic guitar drum beats into looper probably only need 70-80Hz bottom from the subs. The low E on an acoustic 6 string is 81Hz, thumps can easily go an octave or more below that (40Hz) depending on pickups and guitar.
Slaps or string pops on electric bass with magnetic pickups can have output below 10Hz!
Art
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Yes... I have been using the wrong terms. Sorry Mayhem13!!
It's because I'm new to this and very much playing catch up. All of your advice is very appreciated so thanks.
Ok, so CBT and shading might well give me the most. I bet your (Wesayso) system sounds amazing!
Just to be clear (because I haven't been)..It would seem that my vertical HF is only where the green line is in your drawing. At ten feet away, if I move up or down 3 inches (6 total) there is a big loss of HF. This is approximately 3 degrees width.
What would be amazing for me would be to Improve it to 3 feet @ 10 feet, so 11ish degrees. I suspect this is a big ask.
Either way, those tilted adapters may help so ...thanks!
I am going to read all these links to death over the weekend.
The bargain basement subs I've listed above look to be 86dB drivers.
Would this figure be higher when they are in those ported cabs?
They apparently work to 40Hz which fits nicely with what Art says 🙂
I quite fancy the bass cabs, so please talk me out of them if I'm doing something really stupid by buying them. They are car derived but good ones it seems.
I can feel a second amp coming on, especially if I'm going to end up frequency shading the 'top'.
Regarding the mandatory eq thing.. I've been listening/ playing with the digital graphic in my phone. I feel that they don't need more than a bit of treble but my ears probably aren't that trust worthy. I know how I sound live though and the rig sounds pretty good with guitar and vocals, even reasonable of out of the sweet spot.
If i get the subs, a 200uF motor start capacitor and the linkwitz crossovers, I'll be poorer but further forward!
Also.. thanks, I was clearly wrong about my required bass frequencies. I'll play about with shelving off the bass with thumped beats on loop and find out what can be got away with and report back. When I get this finished I'll put some YT links up of it being used if it's allowed.
If this does work well it'll be great for other cafe performer folks who can't afford the Bose and RCF stuff. Potential too to be used as a busking rig using old 48V ebike batteries.
It's because I'm new to this and very much playing catch up. All of your advice is very appreciated so thanks.
Ok, so CBT and shading might well give me the most. I bet your (Wesayso) system sounds amazing!
Just to be clear (because I haven't been)..It would seem that my vertical HF is only where the green line is in your drawing. At ten feet away, if I move up or down 3 inches (6 total) there is a big loss of HF. This is approximately 3 degrees width.
What would be amazing for me would be to Improve it to 3 feet @ 10 feet, so 11ish degrees. I suspect this is a big ask.
Either way, those tilted adapters may help so ...thanks!
I am going to read all these links to death over the weekend.
The bargain basement subs I've listed above look to be 86dB drivers.
Would this figure be higher when they are in those ported cabs?
They apparently work to 40Hz which fits nicely with what Art says 🙂
I quite fancy the bass cabs, so please talk me out of them if I'm doing something really stupid by buying them. They are car derived but good ones it seems.
I can feel a second amp coming on, especially if I'm going to end up frequency shading the 'top'.
Regarding the mandatory eq thing.. I've been listening/ playing with the digital graphic in my phone. I feel that they don't need more than a bit of treble but my ears probably aren't that trust worthy. I know how I sound live though and the rig sounds pretty good with guitar and vocals, even reasonable of out of the sweet spot.
If i get the subs, a 200uF motor start capacitor and the linkwitz crossovers, I'll be poorer but further forward!
Also.. thanks, I was clearly wrong about my required bass frequencies. I'll play about with shelving off the bass with thumped beats on loop and find out what can be got away with and report back. When I get this finished I'll put some YT links up of it being used if it's allowed.
If this does work well it'll be great for other cafe performer folks who can't afford the Bose and RCF stuff. Potential too to be used as a busking rig using old 48V ebike batteries.
I have experience with CBTs because of my Modified CBT24 project. My CBTs are 61 inches high while I'm 75 inches tall and I experience no sound fall off. My CBTs are described here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/my-new-line-array-its-a-modified-cbt24.313352/
CBTs are known to produce vertical dispersion well above their height as illustrated in a photo of Don Keele (CBT guru) and Dr. Floyd Toole (JBL speaker expert) standing on chairs to hear Keele's CBT prototype speakers at:
https://www.keele-omholt-technologies.com/papers/Harman Gallery of CBT Prototypes.pdf (see slide #7)
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/my-new-line-array-its-a-modified-cbt24.313352/
CBTs are known to produce vertical dispersion well above their height as illustrated in a photo of Don Keele (CBT guru) and Dr. Floyd Toole (JBL speaker expert) standing on chairs to hear Keele's CBT prototype speakers at:
https://www.keele-omholt-technologies.com/papers/Harman Gallery of CBT Prototypes.pdf (see slide #7)
Hi Jim
You are the reason I'm actually here 🙂 I need to re-read all the posts of Yours (and Don Keele links) now that I am slowly starting to have a (slightly) better understanding of how this all works, with much help from the great people above in this post. A little knowledge in my case is a dangerous thing...
Good to know I wasn't the only one thinking of using a sub from the woofer in a full range cab as your last picture shows! I'd forgotten about that!
You are the reason I'm actually here 🙂 I need to re-read all the posts of Yours (and Don Keele links) now that I am slowly starting to have a (slightly) better understanding of how this all works, with much help from the great people above in this post. A little knowledge in my case is a dangerous thing...
Good to know I wasn't the only one thinking of using a sub from the woofer in a full range cab as your last picture shows! I'd forgotten about that!
Jonus,
Where abouts in the UK are you? If you're near Sheffield, give me a shout.
Some notes from me on the column speaker stuff:
- I've never found one that sounds good over a useful area. The one I built was with 12x Bose 2.5" full-range drivers. The best I got was running as a frequency-tapered array, so that only the top three drivers were producing treble. With more drivers, the vertical beamwidth got tighter and tighter. I also found the unevenness in tonality vs distance to be the biggest problem. The treble seemed to "throw" much further than the bass, which led to (IMO) unacceptable variations in the sound.
- Commercial ones aren't any better. The well-reviewed EV Evolve 50 was gutless in the lower-midrange, and had weird things happening in the treble. The Bose L1 is even worse for lower-mid, on account of the relatively small cone area. The angled drivers do throw >10kHz in more directions, though, so I suppose that's a bonus.
- These days, if I need a small speaker, I have a couple of 6.5" 2-way boxes. They use the 18Sound 6ND430, which has a useful amount of Xmax and power handling. Sensitivity is a little on the low side, but they stand up to ~500w peaks just fine.
IMO, conventional 2-way boxes still rule here.
Chris
Where abouts in the UK are you? If you're near Sheffield, give me a shout.
Some notes from me on the column speaker stuff:
- I've never found one that sounds good over a useful area. The one I built was with 12x Bose 2.5" full-range drivers. The best I got was running as a frequency-tapered array, so that only the top three drivers were producing treble. With more drivers, the vertical beamwidth got tighter and tighter. I also found the unevenness in tonality vs distance to be the biggest problem. The treble seemed to "throw" much further than the bass, which led to (IMO) unacceptable variations in the sound.
- Commercial ones aren't any better. The well-reviewed EV Evolve 50 was gutless in the lower-midrange, and had weird things happening in the treble. The Bose L1 is even worse for lower-mid, on account of the relatively small cone area. The angled drivers do throw >10kHz in more directions, though, so I suppose that's a bonus.
- These days, if I need a small speaker, I have a couple of 6.5" 2-way boxes. They use the 18Sound 6ND430, which has a useful amount of Xmax and power handling. Sensitivity is a little on the low side, but they stand up to ~500w peaks just fine.
IMO, conventional 2-way boxes still rule here.
Chris
Hi Chris
Sorry...I'm in the south.... I drive an mx5, drink Evian and live on avocados (£800 van, tap water, beans on toast).
-Otherwise I'd pop round for a cuppa. I'd love to learn from your experiments.
Small arrays.... It seems like it can't be done well doesn't it?
It sounds like you gave it a really good go. I did read your build notes.
I have played through a Bose L1 model 2 (i think) indoors and I'm ashamed to say I liked it. I thought it sounded carp outdoors though but it was run by an idiot. My favourite local band have 2 Evox 8's and I like those too. It seems I'm easily pleased or was taken in by the nice (upper) mids or more likely both.
I guess their secret is smaller drivers for a start.
Anyway I've gone ahead and bought the cheap subs. It's late.. not tried them. They were £50 for the pair!!
There appears to be a sale on in the whole of China so I'm tempted to go overdrawn for another 'D bridgeable' amp.
Seem's I'm mentally committed now. If I had a spare £700 I'd jack it in and buy the evox 8 that's on market place and sell my hoards of other speakers.
-This would please my wife.
My talented wood working neighbour's up for bending the cab... I think that means I must shade it though. I just wonder what it'd give me in terms of 'vertical' without the shading? I think tomorrow I need to put them at the far end of the house and see about this scary treble thing your warning me about. To be honest though, the biggest gigs i'll ever play will be wine bars and restaurants I reckon. If at all. I'm trying to move up from open mics and busking.
Sometimes I think mine sounds ok, but after a short while my ears feel like they've been stabbed. Your 6ND430's look sexy btw. 2x200 RMS is plenty for me.
A quick look on here raises the question... did you consider the B&C 6MD38 also?
Another amp puts me £300 in at this point. That's still way cheaper than anything Bose or RCF even second hand.
Sorry...I'm in the south.... I drive an mx5, drink Evian and live on avocados (£800 van, tap water, beans on toast).
-Otherwise I'd pop round for a cuppa. I'd love to learn from your experiments.
Small arrays.... It seems like it can't be done well doesn't it?
It sounds like you gave it a really good go. I did read your build notes.
I have played through a Bose L1 model 2 (i think) indoors and I'm ashamed to say I liked it. I thought it sounded carp outdoors though but it was run by an idiot. My favourite local band have 2 Evox 8's and I like those too. It seems I'm easily pleased or was taken in by the nice (upper) mids or more likely both.
I guess their secret is smaller drivers for a start.
Anyway I've gone ahead and bought the cheap subs. It's late.. not tried them. They were £50 for the pair!!
There appears to be a sale on in the whole of China so I'm tempted to go overdrawn for another 'D bridgeable' amp.
Seem's I'm mentally committed now. If I had a spare £700 I'd jack it in and buy the evox 8 that's on market place and sell my hoards of other speakers.
-This would please my wife.
My talented wood working neighbour's up for bending the cab... I think that means I must shade it though. I just wonder what it'd give me in terms of 'vertical' without the shading? I think tomorrow I need to put them at the far end of the house and see about this scary treble thing your warning me about. To be honest though, the biggest gigs i'll ever play will be wine bars and restaurants I reckon. If at all. I'm trying to move up from open mics and busking.
Sometimes I think mine sounds ok, but after a short while my ears feel like they've been stabbed. Your 6ND430's look sexy btw. 2x200 RMS is plenty for me.
A quick look on here raises the question... did you consider the B&C 6MD38 also?
Another amp puts me £300 in at this point. That's still way cheaper than anything Bose or RCF even second hand.
Jonus,
All of my line arrays and even the CBT that I have built need subwoofers to cover the low end of the band. My straight line arrays have been two-way towers for home which use small mid-woofers--4 to 6 inches in diameter. My CBT project use full range 2.5 inch drivers.
Separate subs give you flexibility to position subs to best address room modes if you are in small spaces. Also you can use larger subs for larger rooms. You should be OK with the low cost subs until you have the need to upgrade.
For my CBTs the baffles and rear panels are 0.5 inch thick MDF which bends enough for the 36 degrees arc in my case. The side panels are flat cut to the curved shape. This construction doesn't require kerf cuts for the baffle and rear panels to bend into shape.
The attenuation shading in my design is done by driver grouping and a few resistors.
Good luck on your project.
Jim
All of my line arrays and even the CBT that I have built need subwoofers to cover the low end of the band. My straight line arrays have been two-way towers for home which use small mid-woofers--4 to 6 inches in diameter. My CBT project use full range 2.5 inch drivers.
Separate subs give you flexibility to position subs to best address room modes if you are in small spaces. Also you can use larger subs for larger rooms. You should be OK with the low cost subs until you have the need to upgrade.
For my CBTs the baffles and rear panels are 0.5 inch thick MDF which bends enough for the 36 degrees arc in my case. The side panels are flat cut to the curved shape. This construction doesn't require kerf cuts for the baffle and rear panels to bend into shape.
The attenuation shading in my design is done by driver grouping and a few resistors.
Good luck on your project.
Jim
Thanks Jim. I read your build notes at the start and did price up the SB65WBAC25-4 at the beginning of my project but I didn't have the budget.
I may have problems with the baffle as I wouldn't be surprised if the large magnets collide when I bend it. We'll see.
I'm going to have fun with my new subs today first and actually play some music for the first time in a while 🙂
Have a great weekend 🙂
I may have problems with the baffle as I wouldn't be surprised if the large magnets collide when I bend it. We'll see.
I'm going to have fun with my new subs today first and actually play some music for the first time in a while 🙂
Have a great weekend 🙂
Happy Weekend!
I've had some results..
I just power shaded my array (of 8) by putting the 2 centre and 3 outer drivers in their own series groups and 'paralleling' them, so 1x 16 ohm group and 2x 24 ohm groups. Overall it comes to 6.8 ohms. I also put a 47Uf (HP) capacitor in series with just the centre (16 ohm) group. No idea how many db's difference this is between groups.
Capacitor is temporary, to even up the power. Saw this in another post.
This power shading has widened the 'vertical' to almost enough:
Around 2 feet at 10 feet away (hooray!). Almost sitting to standing height..! Almost..
The 'horizontal' is fairly narrow too though: about 5ft wide (@10ft).
I'm planning on curving the array in the hope it'll give me a bit more HF width in both axes.
Would this actually do anything? Does the shading need to stay the same?
It Sounds ok with the subs. Needs playing with Eq-wise: Needs dipping at 2.6kHz and lifting at 10K.
I will pull all the filtering out and play with the 160HZ Linkwitz XO board when it turns up.
If I can get just a little bit wider HF in both Axes, I'll be there!!
And I've bought a cheap second hand 48V ebike battery so I can busk with it!!!
I've had some results..
I just power shaded my array (of 8) by putting the 2 centre and 3 outer drivers in their own series groups and 'paralleling' them, so 1x 16 ohm group and 2x 24 ohm groups. Overall it comes to 6.8 ohms. I also put a 47Uf (HP) capacitor in series with just the centre (16 ohm) group. No idea how many db's difference this is between groups.
Capacitor is temporary, to even up the power. Saw this in another post.
This power shading has widened the 'vertical' to almost enough:
Around 2 feet at 10 feet away (hooray!). Almost sitting to standing height..! Almost..
The 'horizontal' is fairly narrow too though: about 5ft wide (@10ft).
I'm planning on curving the array in the hope it'll give me a bit more HF width in both axes.
Would this actually do anything? Does the shading need to stay the same?
It Sounds ok with the subs. Needs playing with Eq-wise: Needs dipping at 2.6kHz and lifting at 10K.
I will pull all the filtering out and play with the 160HZ Linkwitz XO board when it turns up.
If I can get just a little bit wider HF in both Axes, I'll be there!!
And I've bought a cheap second hand 48V ebike battery so I can busk with it!!!