Much discussion of vore..
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/adding-time-delay-to-a-crossover.82557/
I've never felt the need. Easy to move the tweeters the tiny amount required at my ~12Hz X/O points.
I appreciate it is different strokes for different folks.
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We should look at the plots first, it may be simpler than it seems. It won't necessarily need a special circuit.
It's a little difficult to move the internal tweeter diaphragm of the BMS 4592 ND 2" throat driver relative to the midrange diaphragm. The reason why there is a time delay offset between diaphragms is due to the inability to package the two diaphragms close enough together to be time aligned at crossover at the base of the driver's phase plug.
The effect of the added tweeter diaphragm time delay is to change the overall timbre of the driver so that it's quite neutral in sound--as well as much more coherent sounding overall. Relative to the left/right TAD TD-4002 drivers in my setup, the addition of the one wavelength time delay at ~5 to 6 kHz in my center loudspeaker was a pretty big deal for anyone with ears listening to the front three loudspeakers (i.e., the decision whether replace the compression driver with something else or leave in the setup).
I suppose if you haven't heard the difference, you might tend to discount its effect on overall sound quality. In my particular case, a small difference in timbre is a pretty big deal.
BTW: you introduce another 180 degrees of phase lag on the lower frequency diaphragm relative to the higher frequency diaphragm at the internal crossover interference band using a 12 db/octave (second order) crossover network. That's 540 degrees of phase lag overall that you're carrying--just inside the driver itself. If you can't hear that, perhaps your hi-fi needs aren't very stringent.
Chris
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👍
Oh I've heard the differences it can make.
I'm an avid DSP time aligner, apart from my passive Raal Lazy tweeters that I can move at will.
@Cask05
Hi Chris,
Excuse me, maybe a bit off topic.. but would I really like to ask you some questions in private chat, as I am very keen on the MEH K-402 build!
The problem is that I am new to this forum and can't start a private chat myself yet, because of the restrictions.
But I am very enthused about the design and would love to chat about it!
Hi Chris,
Excuse me, maybe a bit off topic.. but would I really like to ask you some questions in private chat, as I am very keen on the MEH K-402 build!
The problem is that I am new to this forum and can't start a private chat myself yet, because of the restrictions.
But I am very enthused about the design and would love to chat about it!
cmon share it publicly a lot of us would be interested on the insights.
Hi
Well I can´t help to say this, and it may sound arrogant. I think it is perfectly OK to ask for a private conversation to keep focus!
Chris shares his insights all over the place. If you follow his trail here and also in the past on the Klipsch forum there are tons of insights. It´s a bit spread around and it takes some time to dig into it. Look for threads on Synergies and MEH´s.
He has contributed a lot of his points/insights in Mark100´s SYN11-thread.
Regards
Steffen
Well I can´t help to say this, and it may sound arrogant. I think it is perfectly OK to ask for a private conversation to keep focus!
Chris shares his insights all over the place. If you follow his trail here and also in the past on the Klipsch forum there are tons of insights. It´s a bit spread around and it takes some time to dig into it. Look for threads on Synergies and MEH´s.
He has contributed a lot of his points/insights in Mark100´s SYN11-thread.
Regards
Steffen
you arrogant rat! I say we end ALL pm's, they are elitist! Time for some populism here on diyAudio.
You can get phase shift with a passive crossover but no "real" delay. There was a nice article not long ago in AudioXpress I belive ... (Jan Didden, was in the mail but could not find it oline?)
"Audio Myths
Phase Shift Is Not Time Delay!"
Phase and time are entangled for steady state waves only, this little piece of science fact is really hard for people to grasp it seems.
To say that phase can be said to be just time delay is wrong but a pure time delay can be described as phase. Apparent time delay as seen from a certain frequency is quite different from transient behavior, but what we are debating here is a case of physical offset that is to be addressed as time delay and not phase.
The main difference between delay and phase is that delay is the rate of phase over a band of frequencies.
Without seeing the article it's kind of difficult to qualify it.
Without seeing the article it's kind of difficult to qualify it.
haha...i'd say the main difference is they have nothing to do with each other
Other than simple math that says a given amount of time equals so many degrees of phase delay at a given frequency...
can't use that for anything really...
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