It's the original Danley MEH conical horn designed for use with a 1" exit CD, so could start with DIYing a scaled up version for a 4-500 Hz XO and if later wanting to go to the extra time/$$$/effort to convert to MEH, you're > half way there..........
Sound fidelity with a properly designed square/rectangular conical horn is superior overall to a simple round/petal conical horn (no 'waist banding'), so would have to add the former's 'flip out' mouth extension to be on par, so considerably more time consuming to fabricate for many DIYers, not to mention a lot harder to make a round MEH and otherwise requires a longer CTC spacing if typical multiway, so overall consider it a poor choice unless listening from very far away in comparison.
Anyway, at ~$500/pr budget plus wanting a large enough horn for a 4-500 Hz XO, just assumed there wasn't any horn/CD combo worth buying that could come even remotely close...........
FYI/FWIW there's some easy tweaks to transform these Altec cabs, sectoral horns.
Agreed, though depending on who you ask, the 811 is best limited to 1.2 kHz and use some version of the Altec M19's XO, though tube driven systems, tapped autoformer is best for vintage horns.
At 500 Hz, some find (tweaked) 511 plenty good enough, but a proper conical horn is indeed best overall.
I've looked at that horn too, it did look like a feasible option. Do you not think it's suitable to play much above 3khz? Thx for the input.
I suppose I don't know what you mean by a square/rectangular conical horn... that seems contradictory, as I understand conical to be round by nature. But I think I get the drift, and that's interesting to learn. This "simple round/petal conical horn" - would that be representative of the round waveguides like this https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-H08RW-8-Round-Waveguide-1-3-8-18-TPI-270-308?quantity=1, and bigger models? They claim to be "uncolored". But I suppose as far as "ideal" goes, I was thinking more along the lines of the oblate spheroid a la Earl Geddes, but perhaps even that is surpassed in certain aspects.
For a 500hz XO, what are your thoughts on the goldwood GM-450PB ? Or the probably superior B&C ME75 It's a 2" throat, and it doesn't look like it's constant directivity... HF extension may be limited, or simply very narrow. But there are at least a few options on PE that can load down to 800hz or lower, which I'd be fine with.
The B&C ME60 can do 800hz, the ME90 can do 900hz for a 1.4" throat, as can the LaVoce HD1403.
The PRV WG45-50 2" can do 500hz as well. All these are under 100 bucks except the ME75 at 154.
Or for $220 a piece plus shipping, I could get the JBL 2446h mounted on horns (it's not clear what the horns are)... https://reverb.com/item/67209443-jbl-2426h-hf-8-ohm-compression-driver-w-horn?bk=
I read in another thread suggested above, that keeping the 15" below 1200hz is adequate in terms of avoiding overly narrow dispersion, although that's not the only reason to cross it even lower of course.
Thanks for your input and I'll look into the Danley MEH.
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Very interesting, thank you! When I get the chance, hopefully tomorrow, I will open up the back of my cabinets (the entire back is just screwed on and has a gasket, but it's a lot of screws so it's a bit of a pain and I fear stripping the wood) and find out the compression driver model. I think I remember they were in some version of altec voice of the theater speakers... they're not rated for high power handling, and the horn is an exponential design with roughly an 11"x4" mouth, seems like cast or aluminum, they have no flange on the front but rather on the back, and you see a single screw on either side of the horn on the front baffle holding it in. I think the driver had 3 bolts. But I'll find out, and if I can upload pictures I'll do that.
Hey I purchased the minidsp umik-1 btw, should have it within a week, and I'll get to learn a lot about my current speakers, crossovers, and EQ settings!
On axis, most likely
But assumed a 3 way since it is likely to be somewhat directional at that point.
So very small horn or even bullet at 2 or 3k
I think that you're mistaking the 2426H for the larger 2446H. The horn shown appears to be a JBL 2370 (or copy). The combination shown was once used with a 2225H in what was known as a JBL 4671, crossed over at about 800Hz.
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Yes thank you, my mistake. Any of those stand out as great options for either a 500 or 800hz crossover? If I want the horn to extend relatively high and have decent HF dispersionI'm guessing I need to stick with a 1 or 1 3/8 or maybe 1.5" throat/driver, as opposed to the 2 inchers... that that also conflicts with playing low, although there are 1" options that should be just fine to 800 at least.
OK, my memory was totally wrong. I was told by the builder/seller that they were from SOME kind of theater speakers, but they are not Altecs. The CD's are Akai HM-80, 8 ohm, designated as only 15w. I'll also experiment with a small/thin or not-dense piece of foam in the back of the throat, just to see the effects.
Here's some pictures. It's a very odd and seemingly proprietary horn. There's a metal screen that I was going to remove as a mod that I thought would be on the compression driver over the opening, but it turns out it's in the throat of the horn itself, like 2" in, and the thing the CD mounts to seems to be glued in. The crossovers, which I forgot to picture here, are also smaller and simpler than I remember... probably not adequate for passing a ton of power, though I've never noticed any issues. But even just that could be a FR/SQ issue itself, outside of the drivers themselves. The hole in the CD, the little throat before the horn throat, is also not perfectly smooth, there's a lip/edge in there because it's multiple pieces of metal, I could probably putty that.
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You're in the USA. There are threads on multiway forum puffing the 1" CD Eminence PSD2002-8 which has a resonance of 550 hz. Eminence says it is usable 1.2khz to 20k. Response at 15k is down 5 db from 10 k. Response at 800 hz is 6 db down from 2200 hz. AES power is 80 w (in band) PSD2002-8 is $80 bolt on and $90 screw on.today at Parts-express.com https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/econowave-style-15.400662/latest
Can you even hear that 15 khz? I can't, my hearing stops at 14 khz (age 73, US Army vet). After that, constant whistles.
Before spending money reproducing 10k to 20 k, do a hearing test with some good earphones.
I'm perfectly happy with the 1.4" Peavey RX22 which was crossed as low as 800 hz in 1985 SP2(175 watt AES), crossed at 1200 hz 1995 to boost SP2-XT speaker power to 350 w, then crossed at 1800 hz 2004 to boost to 500 w. RX22 stop at 15 khz. They are $200 new but often available with the horns on the used market for $150 the pair. Dead SP2 SP5 SP3 each have one, and it is usually the woofer that is blown by bar bands. Dropped mikes or cables pulled out can blow a CD, but Peavey SP2 have a incandescent bulb limiter in them.
You could do a lot better than a 15 w akai 2" CD I'm sure. I was going to suggest measuring your system to see what is wrong, but first thing it is not really a JBL 2225, which is rather legendary. My SP2(2004) horn is 7"x14" with rounded edges, and that gets full frequency response 6 db down to 45 deg off axis, and +10 -40 deg from horizontal (SP2 are made to be mounted high on poles, where I have mine). Peavey are getting 1200-1800 hz out to 45 deg - 6db from a 15" woofer by pinching in the back of the case and doing tricks with the elastomer stuffing.
Another thing about these, the Harmonic distortion is 2nd harmonic 20 db down from 5 w response 60 hz to 12khz. Most speakers don't even measure HD. Where low HD shines in my system, piano all octaves, tinkly bells, cymbals, etc sound more real than anything else I've heard. That includes the Meyer sound speakers at Brown Theater over in downtown Louisville. I run mine at 1/4-50 w in my music room.
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Altec/GPA 1" 802/902 series good to 500 - 20,000 Hz with suitable size horn of course, which for conical requires it be 1 WL axial length min..
With 'el cheapo' drivers, use two and roll one off for a 1.5 system as I did with dual 802s to work down to 300 Hz parabolic.
With 'el cheapo' drivers, use two and roll one off for a 1.5 system as I did with dual 802s to work down to 300 Hz parabolic.
parts-express and madisound don't have any of those. ebay lists used 802+511 horn for $500. If not counterfeit of damaged. ebay have an 802 driver only, $595. So, who cares about these legendary unicorns? O.P. budget was $500 for both cabinets?
I've been impressed with Altec since I heard some in Long Point Cinema 1966 at the behest of my band director. I've never lived with 250 miles of an authorized Altec distributor. The 2 ways have always been 200 to 10 times my monthly salary.
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True, either used or 902 series from GPA @ $850/ea. and yes, I saw his (unrealistic IME) budget, hence use dual inexpensive drivers and a big horn to keep them from audibly distorting down low.
@Lee Spencer how far are you from FL? @Soldermizer is tossing some MEH Yorkvilles…
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/finally-bought-a-pair-of-real-danley.400535/post-7403301
May be worth a road trip if you can save them.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/finally-bought-a-pair-of-real-danley.400535/post-7403301
May be worth a road trip if you can save them.
My woofers are indeed 2225h's, the cones may not appear the right color to you because I mod podged them primarily for aesthetics but also any extra weight and rigidity in my application I considered a good thing, to help the low bass. They look way better with the deep shiny black vs. the greyish color they are naturally. I could show you the back of the drivers, I know they're legendary, that's why I bought them myself for over 300 dollars on Ebay nearly 15 years ago. The speakers were originally designed with a 15" RTR woofer, which was not a pro driver, just a budget 15" driver from some commercial speakers. Obviously a coat or two of mod podge doesn't weigh much compared to the mass ring in the 2235, but you get the idea. I do not know the size of the Akai driver, perhaps you looked it up, I haven't yet... but the throat is around half an inch... surprisingly small, definitely a tweeter horn, not really a "mid-range" horn.
I can't "hear" 20khz that's for sure, but I'm 36, and I can hear above 14khz, maybe 16khz meaningfully. To do a proper test I would have to first trust the output of my tweeters is there... right now I'm just assuming it's there and that I can't hear it. I await my miniDSP Umik-1 measuring microphone.
It sounds like, and this is perfectly fine if true - you do you - that you are biased towards the kind of "vintage hi-fi" that my OP talked about, which I do not regard as superior... I highly doubt some horn from the 60s is as good as a modern horn designed with CAD software, and a modern CD.... I could be wrong... it's more possible for the old CD to be a good unit than the horn though... that's just straight facts and math, modern horns are superior to 50 year old horns, period. Hence my line of questioning/requests... if you search PE, madisound, ebay, whatever... there are tons of options for good CD's for say 200 or less, and plenty of horns, even name brand aluminum or thick ABS horns, for 100 or less. If I can get compression drivers AND horns for 5 or 6 hundred dollars, that was essentially my current goal. The problem isn't that options to achieve this don't exist... the problem is the overwhelming number of options there are, and I was hoping to get that narrowed down, and thank you and everyone else here for giving me lots of opinions and things to look into. I'm not into or looking for vintage hi-fi... I'm looking for modern affordable but high performance (due to computer aided design) chi-fi... how bout that? What works ideally in a giant theater is also not necessarily what will work in my perhaps 19x22-ish living room, with speakers and listening position making roughly a 12 foot equilateral triangle, and in my VERY admittedly inexperienced second-hand and logic-based opinion/speculation, I firmly believe 500-1000 dollars of modern budget/mid-range gear can yield superior results to some expensive old Altec kit, within the appropriate paramters/constraints and considering, again, that we don't need 115 decibels here... but sound quality and smoothness will inevitably be superior... far better controlled internal reflections in the modern horn geometry etc. Look no farther than the new Klipsch Heritage series... the new horns and CD's are so far superior to the old ones it's not even funny.
There are a pair of Peavey SP2 (1985) crossed over at 800 hz on ebay now for $300. Free pickup Rochester NY https://www.ebay.com/itm/295741844085?hash=item44db966a75:g:~EgAAOSw7-Vkfjqa&amdata=enc:AQAIAAAA8M34BV6OMl1BagAtDqL01CDTG6AKemYsPPkP2X/jGuJJTRvCcNfzMRLAqlLVuxfacnY5zHjQD26Pu7L/100/yOXiuOfgCCArC3mJLSC9dYYEarzIh7Caou2EJDksvZig4TrUbaXtEaPV8ZaStt67pZiLTZZXzdg8f8MitIUu91cjDJH/Mk8/vToHJWOz+5/NdMzamYBTAaoC8qNT9bzN2bISGL7PHDf1Om7Skg3y8bQ9znDtYkf2Z08tdMrlSz7WkxGvbhnrnIgBoXewBO39Dn07ffJ8qvie1qlpcAZTXs3gmZRQg7Rc1GjqPJe2RgkNyw==|tkp:Bk9SR-Tw-ZasYg
I've seen them as low as $200 the pair, in Iowa. You can tell they are crossed over at 800 hz because the rated wattage is 150 AES. Also the rounded horn. Anything that old will require new electrolytic caps in the crossover, and probably cleaning of the switching 1/4 phone jacks so they make contact.
Soldermizer said clearly it is not worth his time to take the drivers out of the yorkvilles. Carry them away from Tampa pretty quickly or they are going to the dump.
Frankly I think the modern SP2(2004) in my music room sound better than SP2 1985, crossed at 1800 hz. They are huge, and I do not find them overwhelming in my 14' w x 11' t x 33' long music room. My listening couch is 12' away. Especially at 1/4 watt. If the woofer doesn't move, it doesn't have much reason to distort. My Hammond & Shobel organs, and the Steinway 40 piano, are bigger.
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Interesting. And in your experience, those karaoke-bar looking PA speakers can actually sound hi-fi? Very surprising but if you say so I'll believe you! Those look like bi-radial horns like some older JBLs... very good and even horizontal dispersion but limited vertical, is that your experience? I suppose the newer ones could sound better for a number of reasons... not sure what parts have been changed besides just the x-over point... but maybe those particular horns just also don't sound great going down to 800hz. It's not exactly what I have in mind though. My current speakers don't sound like any typical older PA speaker I've heard personally... they do genuinely have a very "hi-fi" detailed kind of sound, and pretty balanced with the 5 band parametric doing some heavy lifting... it's just those 2 or 3 areas where I notice they fall short (primarily, around that lower x-over region and the lower range of the horn, and maybe a little thing going on around 7.3khz, and the varying dispersion characteristics at different frequency ranges) that I want to improve upon. They don't even suffer from bad sibilance really. Maybe these peaveys are way better than what the image brings to mind, and other PA speakers I'm comparing them to.