Some time back (ok, 20 years+ 🙂 ), I did a comparison between LPs and CDs, because I was at a transition point of what media type I should go with when investing in new albums. I guess the system is somewhat relevant, and at the time was a Systemdek II with SME 3009 fixed magnesium head and Grado F1+ cartridge vs a couple of CD players (Philips was one), all routed thru my hand built Crimson CPR1 pre and CE1704 amps driving Mission 700mk2 and latterly 763 speakers. My overriding memory was that LPs seemed to have marginally more detail and subtlety, but suffered from crackles and pops whereas the CD version of the same album was just marginally less nuanced but came with less 'live noise' and I could sit and listen for twice as long. I went with CD's and despite having kept the Systemdek setup, I haven't bothered with LPs much since then. For my next sound project I'll be using a streaming front end with CD quality DAC input. As a summary, from my perspective 15min/side for LPs is just too much of a pita to really warrant the marginal extra detail, as is setting up the arm/cartridge combination to track correctly (weight, sideforce etc), I just want to sit and appreciate music. YMMV, Nick
Think I know what you mean. I used to do live sound for a living a very long time ago. Sometimes it could sound bigger and better than real life, really good. Standing ovation for the soundman good.
That said, I still think there is more to the story. IMHO there are some remaining smallish imperfections with the best digital I have heard. They get smaller and smaller as time goes on, of course. Perhaps consider that digital audio is still an active area of research. There are still significant patents being filed. PWM sigma-delta is an interesting one that hasn't made its way into most mainstream reproduction yet. Sure, Bruno Putzeys used it for Mola dacs, but don't expect to see it in laptop soundcards for some time yet.
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Right now I can tell the difference, over YouTube, between different cartridges and also tell which one sounds better, in agreement with the reviewer. Something must be coming through to me, not lost in the translation.
I could always tell the difference between tape (casette, CrO2) and vinyl, vinyl was always clearer. I can tell that compression has been applied to the mp3 I listen to compared to the vinyl. Just listen to a saxophone.
Every recording is different, even on copied fake cassette tapes that were available in the 1980s.
This sense of discernment has only appeared after 40+ years of listening, and experimenting with cheap PC speakers and cardboard or hardboard enclosures.
When we were young, we just wanted the music loud, and it did not matter where the speakers were or what direction they were facing! It is not lack of hearing, it is lack of training and sensitivity. Hi Fi outlets should do a better job of educating people, not just advertising.
They're Rega. That particular one would be the Elys 2. Different colours for different models in the lineup. Coloured plastic is quite common anyway for cartridges, and Rega developed a habit of putting some colour into their components way back - I think there's a bit of a story behind why they did that originally. Anyway, to me it's fairly unobjectionable for something as small as a cartridge. The plinths can be very, well, conspicuous, but that was part of a design thing they had, sort of pop art or whatever, and their turntables had quite a sleek, modern look, to my eye. I used to be more taken with the colours than I am now, but I used to be younger than I am now. They don't bother me, and I don't object to a bit of colour in audio. We use it everywhere else, so why not. And I think they've always catered as well to people who want to play it safe with black, as well as offering some tables with wood trim (like the Rega P9, for example).
Sourcing:
I ordered my latest record off Ebay. The last one I ordered turned out to be well used, let's say.
So where to get good vinyl online?
I ordered my latest record off Ebay. The last one I ordered turned out to be well used, let's say.
So where to get good vinyl online?
Last week, on the mail, I received an upgraded power supply for my DIY phono stage.
Hard to tell, because the system was already very musical and the noise level is very low... but it sounds "quieter".
I dunno, but I still prefer turntables with multiple parts that can be changed and upgraded at will. Most turntables are just a set and forget thing. Don't even get me started on the ones with a build in phono stage and USB. Yuck.
Oh recording at 24/96... I've been doing it for 20 years now... the problem is that as I upgrade the front end and the AD/DAC every recording is invalidated... so I just gave up on recording. I might end up getting rid of the RME.
Hard to tell, because the system was already very musical and the noise level is very low... but it sounds "quieter".
I dunno, but I still prefer turntables with multiple parts that can be changed and upgraded at will. Most turntables are just a set and forget thing. Don't even get me started on the ones with a build in phono stage and USB. Yuck.
Oh recording at 24/96... I've been doing it for 20 years now... the problem is that as I upgrade the front end and the AD/DAC every recording is invalidated... so I just gave up on recording. I might end up getting rid of the RME.
Btw the thorens are also nice turntables to fool around with. The linn lp12 basicly was a copy of the TD150, only it costs 5 times as much 2nd hand.
I bought my TD150 for 80 bucks and turned it into a LP12 kinda copy. In the end it cost me like 500 euros complete and it plays pretty well. Have to say i got some good friends who could cut the stainless top plate for me and deliver me the plexiglas for the cover as well. So i was a little cheaper there.
The right one is the TD150 with an audioquest arm. The left one was my old one, a TD165 with stock tp11 arm.
At the moment im building a salas phono preamp. Its fun to play around haha.
I bought my TD150 for 80 bucks and turned it into a LP12 kinda copy. In the end it cost me like 500 euros complete and it plays pretty well. Have to say i got some good friends who could cut the stainless top plate for me and deliver me the plexiglas for the cover as well. So i was a little cheaper there.
The right one is the TD150 with an audioquest arm. The left one was my old one, a TD165 with stock tp11 arm.
At the moment im building a salas phono preamp. Its fun to play around haha.
Attachments
I thought Discogs was a music information site. Prices are good with shipping. Good for a test record to test how bad it can be and still yield music.
What does the Good, Good Plus mean? Anyone order from here recently?
I think one needs to distinguish between "analog as a sound effect", like what some mix engineers or sound engineers seek when they apply "tape simulation" plugins or when they use tube based preamps that intentionally add "warmth" or distortions to the sound.
This is very different to the "analog" used by audio engineers or recording engineers for audiophile labels (think Sheffield labs, for example), where the goal is NOT to add any kind of coloration or artifiacts, quite the contrary the goal is transparent sound.
I saw a similar discussion on another online forum regarding tape recorders, some of the better studio multitracks of the past were appreciated by their LACK of coloration, LACK of "head bumps" (frequency response anomalies), and very low distortions. Exactly the OPPOSITE of what the "mix engineers" seek nowadays when they think "analog"
Also it needs to be distinguished between "digital" as "44KHz/16bit" versus high quality digital like 192/24 or DSD256. Worlds apart.
My experience with turntabls tells me vinyl replay gives superior quality to the same recording in 44/16 redbook CD standard. In general, superior performance to CDs in naturalness of sound and LACK of artifacts, excellent soundstaging, location of instruments, etc. I woudn't consider it superior to 192/24bit digital, though.
I find the Rega P1 and P3 turntables with really good tonearms coupled to a crap (P1) or acceptable (P3) turntable (platter+drive system+bearing). I suspect most of the cost of the Rega P1 or P3 turntables goes to the tonearm. Even the one in the lowly RP1 is very good and superior to some tonearms in well-liked vintage players.
Since the tonearm and cartridge is paramount to sound quality, this Rega strategy of putting most of the cost into the tonearm is a good one. However you can do even better. Transplanting a P1 or P3 tonearm to a very good turntable allows you to have a really really good turntable.
Still, i do agree that a second-hand P3 or RP3 is a good buy.
So please give me a list of the gear used as i'm interested in seeing what you think analog transparent gear is.
Because i've used ( and still use) both kind of tools you talk about and know difference between them and how it is received by different kind of engineers ( tracking/recording, mixing or mastering engineers are not the same people and don't use the same gear to same goal) and why.
Anyway if you can gather information i'm most interested in microphone as it is the first step in an analog chain and where there is the most chance you'll see artefact happening ( it is a transducer stage where a kind of energy is converted into another and as such this is potentially where there is the most issues happening... as in the other end of the chain: loudspeakers. And i'm sure you'll agree this by far the place where there is the most issues in a reproducing chain).
The tape emulation plug ins effect you talk about is used mostly by people who never used a tape and even more tape multitrack.
Often this tools just mimic some of the artefacts tape brings but they usually grossly mimic limiting tape bring and which is it's main interest for many popular genres ( rock and pop).
Iow it's another kind of compression used.
This is a fantasy and misconception in my view... and as you say you gathered this information from discussion over internet.
As i was active in studio from 1995 to 2015 i've used analog and digital gear of various kind (from entry level level to top notch) in both technology (and serviced/ maintenanced them too) i can tell you there is no such thing as a linear frequency response tape recorder being it multitrack or 2track : one of the reason many pro were happy to switch to digital as you had'nt to spend amount of time aligning heads and verifying the inconstancy between tracks were still acceptable even on 2tracks to print the final mixes to send to mastering.
You could minimise some of the issue by playing with parameters ( bias, kind of tape, speed and serious alignement) and achieve great results but nothing like what digital offer in term of consistency and speed of use.
Different brands had different results too: talking multitrack you would not use Studer gear for rock & roll or 3m for classical... Same could to an extend be said about tape and formula used in them.
To give you a famous example: M.Jackson's voice on thriller where tracked using the full 24 tracks of a dedicated tape multitrack. Not each track for a take but a copy of the mic sent to 24 tracks and mixed from all of them played at the same time. It helped average the different 'sounds' each track of multitrack had ( as well as chanel on desk...) ang gives a 'fuller' sound as outcome.
And believe me in this kind of production they had access to the best gear you could have dreamed about and was availlable at that time.
When i read things like that i feel people loose their sense of measure easily. There is difference there is no questions about it but worlds apart it is not my experience.
It depend from the gear you compare too: a no name mass produced cd player and a PrismSound ADA 8xr... same kind analogy in comparing a Traban and a Bugatti Veron.
Some 16/44,1 gear is still used because it sounds good and sometime more pleasing that more recent gear used at this FS. Even converters in mastering facility like Pacifica's, Apogee or Studers from this generation are still used this days.
If you think there is a lack of artifacts with vinyl then you should definitely read about what a cuting lathe can do and the limitation it brings.
The question about how our brain perceive and interpret them is another whole subject.
Can you tell me in what monoed bass is something you experience in reality for example? Or frequency bandpass limiting? Or restricted dynamic range?
None of this happen in real life and sadly this is basis limitation of vinyl medium. I learned the hard way when some of my mixes where refused by mastering engineer as they didn't satisfied those constraints.
The FEELING of difference of naturalness and lack of artefacts you talk about are mainly from different ( pre)mastering process: a cuting lathe can't withstand same amount of compression as digital medium and so message is usually less treated: too much compression put too much stress on the cuting head and you risk to destroy it. And if you think an MC is not cheap or easy to fix/repare don't look at how much it cost for a cuting lathe head and how many people are able to fix them on earth ( i've heard the number of fingers on one hand is way above that number.).
In the same spirit digital enable crosstalk levels down to 90db but vinyl is usually in the order of 50/60db which is not impressive but much more similar to what we experience in reality where there is no natural coherent sound source with 90db figure but in the order of... 50/60db.
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Be warned it is a market and as such you'll have good and bad experience. 90% of my experience have been great but i had bad surprise too. Such is life and being a customer on internet with international sales.
That said as there is a ranking of sellers it is usually 'safe' to buy there looking at it.
The VG, G+ and other grade relate to the state of the vinyl and sleeves. It is explained in the site look for this i can't remmember every ranking...
As those are 'collector' items it change the value if sleeves have been damaged for example. It depend of the release too some are betters than others ( pressing, mastering) and scarcity ( eg for releases early 2000 as there was low sales there was low number of disc printed... so value can be insane).
I'm only interested in the vinyl state and usually don't care about sleeve being damaged as long as it plays without flaws. But i'm not a 'collector' and don't 'invest' in disc for reselling later. Ymmv.
Not to mention the quirks of playback hardware. Its quite complicated to do well.
I've purchased lots of LPs from discogs vendors. I ususally buy used vinyl at NM, although with rarer titles I may go down the VG+ for the media condition. I'll also accept lower rating on the jacket condition.
It's all subjective and typically visually graded and can vary from vendor to vendor. This will take some time and experience to familiarize yourself with. Additionally, I have records that visually look terrible yet play quietly and vice versa.
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I have both vinyl and CD. The later is clearly more convenient, more robust and easier to copy content to servers. But after recently buying a new TT the quality of playback from my vinyl is now good enough to compete and I simply enjoy the process of handling and playing vinyl. I bought a Dual TT, semi-automatic and it shipped with Ortophon Blue. It has a bypassable built in phono (which sounds v good) and plays 33-45-78. It just worked out of the box. I’m now happy to keep buying vinyl.