Here we go again.
Well, yes all I have now are mp3 and CDs and YouTube. I might as well give vinyl a try, before I decide to progress further.
I need to visit a Hi-Fi showroom and hear what audio components sound like for the price. Then I have to get my listening space in order.
Last edited:
I came across this: I can hear the difference, however not sure how high end your system has to be to make a difference. Apparently some records were manufactured with the grooves stamped off center, though the record is physically centered around the center hole.
Can a mobile phone accelerometer app do the same thing, or the record rpm app? Remains to be seen.
Can a mobile phone accelerometer app do the same thing, or the record rpm app? Remains to be seen.
If you visit a Hi-Fi showroom, probably best to be careful about listening to speakers when other speakers, and or musical instruments, and or other resonant and or damping type objects, are in the same room. They all affect the sound. Don't listen too loud or to soft. Adjust the volume level to where your hearing is most comfortable and most sensitive, don't let the salesman adjust it for you. Also adjust volume up or down as needed to hear how level changes sound.
Vocal sounds, especially harmonies, can be very revealing of flaws since we all tend to know how real voices sound.
Regarding digital, try high sample rate DSD, such as DSD256, DSD512 or DSD1024. Some dacs sound best at DSD256. You can make a DSD256 (or higher) file from a CD and take it with you to a hi-fi store, then ask them to play it on their 'good' system (i.e. their 'best' system). If they don't know how, then maybe its not the right hi-fi shop.
Offline PCM->DSD converter link: https://pcmdsd.com/Software/PCM-DSD_Converter_en.html
Other thing is to be careful about not choosing a sound that seems technically detailed, but that you may tire of after maybe an hour or so of listening. Your system should both sound good and sound real if left playing all day and night. Every recording should sound different too. If there is something about the system sound which same for all recordings then that could be a problem. Bass may be flabby and slow, midrange may be thin and shallow, HF may be bright and or fatiguing, soundstage may be forward in front of the speakers and compressed into the middle of the width between the speakers. Some bad stuff to be aware of.
Probably a number of other things other forum members could advise for evaluating a system by ear.
Vocal sounds, especially harmonies, can be very revealing of flaws since we all tend to know how real voices sound.
Regarding digital, try high sample rate DSD, such as DSD256, DSD512 or DSD1024. Some dacs sound best at DSD256. You can make a DSD256 (or higher) file from a CD and take it with you to a hi-fi store, then ask them to play it on their 'good' system (i.e. their 'best' system). If they don't know how, then maybe its not the right hi-fi shop.
Offline PCM->DSD converter link: https://pcmdsd.com/Software/PCM-DSD_Converter_en.html
Other thing is to be careful about not choosing a sound that seems technically detailed, but that you may tire of after maybe an hour or so of listening. Your system should both sound good and sound real if left playing all day and night. Every recording should sound different too. If there is something about the system sound which same for all recordings then that could be a problem. Bass may be flabby and slow, midrange may be thin and shallow, HF may be bright and or fatiguing, soundstage may be forward in front of the speakers and compressed into the middle of the width between the speakers. Some bad stuff to be aware of.
Probably a number of other things other forum members could advise for evaluating a system by ear.
I came across this video, and I had to watch it more than once to take everything in, including the name of the manufacturer. The design that they chose to show seemed a very practical and innovative design, with its separate sections for the turntable and the outer sides of the plinth. Very purposefully designed system, or so it seems. Really nice. Many models and prices listed here- they use an external power supply?
Discussion of transporting turntable and records:
https://www.falconerremovals.co.uk/industry-news/how-to-pack-a-record-player-for-moving/
https://www.falconerremovals.co.uk/industry-news/how-to-pack-a-record-player-for-moving/
Assuming a good entry level turntable, or even a low priced one, the the components of the system speaker placement and sound levels will determine the other components of the audio system. For example, I want the speakers to be placed at least 1 metre from the wall behind the speakers, and at equal distances, and on stands or at ear level. I think this a good way of obtaining better sound without much cost. Some manufactures are trying to build speakers that sound good '2 feet from wall', and my own Diamond 4s are practically up against the wall, with the rear ports facing - rearwards of course.
Earlier experiments with cardboard enclosures and wooden open baffle speakers have convinced me that space behind the speaker is important, and so are stands.
The arrangement featured below is about what I can achieve, however, the speakers look too close to the walls.
https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/blog/art-positioning-speakers
This arrangement seems much better:
https://www.elac.com/speaker-placement-guide-get-the-best-sound-from-your-stereo/
An option for my listening environment. The speakers are floating in air, some stands would help. The turntable and amplifier is on the shelf, and the amplifier would go there as well. I also need a remote control, it is a must. The question is, with bookshelf speakers or open baffles using modest drivers,
and a low powered amplifier at 70 dB at 1 metre, how good a turntable would one need? Is it worth it?
Earlier experiments with cardboard enclosures and wooden open baffle speakers have convinced me that space behind the speaker is important, and so are stands.
The arrangement featured below is about what I can achieve, however, the speakers look too close to the walls.
https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/blog/art-positioning-speakers
This arrangement seems much better:
https://www.elac.com/speaker-placement-guide-get-the-best-sound-from-your-stereo/
An option for my listening environment. The speakers are floating in air, some stands would help. The turntable and amplifier is on the shelf, and the amplifier would go there as well. I also need a remote control, it is a must. The question is, with bookshelf speakers or open baffles using modest drivers,
and a low powered amplifier at 70 dB at 1 metre, how good a turntable would one need? Is it worth it?
Remote control? For your TT? It seems weird: with TT be prepared to move: max 30mn/face... you'll be moving! 😉
Remote for volume, right?
One thing: TT on shelve can be an issue because of (solid) transmission of vibration. It might be better to have something bolted on wall to isolate them from vibration your loudspeakers bring. A TT can weight a bit so no flimsy fixation. If on shelf is mandatory you might need some isolating map.
I don't get your question about worth it or not: a source is a source, if your digital one is already good and your pleased with it, a 'good' TT will be ok too. Low output level can be an advantage with TT: less vibration, as long as stylus output is masked by loudspeakers it's fine.
Remote for volume, right?
One thing: TT on shelve can be an issue because of (solid) transmission of vibration. It might be better to have something bolted on wall to isolate them from vibration your loudspeakers bring. A TT can weight a bit so no flimsy fixation. If on shelf is mandatory you might need some isolating map.
I don't get your question about worth it or not: a source is a source, if your digital one is already good and your pleased with it, a 'good' TT will be ok too. Low output level can be an advantage with TT: less vibration, as long as stylus output is masked by loudspeakers it's fine.
Last edited:
That depends on the model. Often not. I don't keep up with Rega's current designs, but they're a respected manufacturer, they've been around for a long time, and the company as far as I know is in good shape.
If you prefer something really solidly built, you'd probably want to look elsewhere. They go in for light, strong materials and the turntables are often equipped with parts that look to be from the inexpensive end of the scale. And some very stripped-back design, as someone who wants to switch speeds could tell you. This in no way means that they are bad turntables, but they're not to everyone's taste.
Aesthetically, they took a path that set them apart from most of the others for quite a few years, but it was later emulated by the likes of Project and U-Turn. Yes, those glaring colours.
If you weren't aware of Rega before, which you can't have been if it took a second viewing to establish who was the maker of these (the worker's shirts are a giveaway), then it's probable you're still at the vinyl-curious stage. Everything looks cool - which isn't a bad place to be, because a lot of it is cool. There are some nice linear and idler turntables out there, too.
Havent had time to read the whole topic. A turntable i suggest a lot to people who are seriously starting out with vinyl is an older Rega P3. They can be found here in europe for around 300 euro. The RB300 arm is really good and you can get some upgrade stuff for it if wanted. Premotec motor are also good, also found in the Linn lp12 for instance.
And if you dont like the looks you can also start with some other wood or veneer
Here is a RP3 i gave a new wood body.
https://thumbs-eu-west-1.myalbum.io/photo/540/7487bf8f-3fb1-43a1-a193-c3563ffa295a.jpg
And if you dont like the looks you can also start with some other wood or veneer
Here is a RP3 i gave a new wood body.
https://thumbs-eu-west-1.myalbum.io/photo/540/7487bf8f-3fb1-43a1-a193-c3563ffa295a.jpg
Yes, remote control for volume. That will mean an amp with remote control.. Or... a Bluetooth transmitter from the turntable or one of those linear turntable, I guess they have remotes.
30 minutes a side: that slipped my mind. One of the articles I read suggested sitting next to your Hi Fi set up and having the speakers out in the distance, so you do not have to move much, but this will lead to some very strange seating arrangements.
One of the experts on YouTube mentioned that he chose his speakers because his wife liked them better, and that 'there are other considerations than good sound' or words to that effect. I must say similar considerations apply here as well. That experts floor standers were stuck in a corner, like many of these things, I really don't know if placement is important or is impractical.
In another video, the turntable was placed on top of the amplifier, and the speakers were on either side, on the same piece of furniture. I thought that sort of strange.
I realized I should have been clearer in what I said: basically, how good of an amplifier and speakers do you have to have to enjoy the entry level turntable, Crosley, Audio Technica, and other nameless brands. I have heard an USB turntable played back through a decent audio system and it sounds listenable, but that is again through YouTube.
This has to be true, it is from FACT magazine. No misinformation here.
https://www.factmag.com/2015/06/23/...ts-you-play-your-vinyl-with-a-remote-control/
More facts:
https://www.royharpaz.com/single-post/2015/06/27/toc-a-vertical-record-player
I don't get it: how do they control tracking force and anti-skating? That player looks tilted backwards.
That is really very beautifully done, and a big improvement. That is close to what I think a turntable should look like.
I cannot say the same thing about the people who made that bright blue plastic cartridge. Who are they and why did they do such a thing?
Appearance is very very important. No offence but I don't think I would like to have Denon, looks too round.
Transporting turntables and records - FYI - other thread:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/contactless-vinyl-record-playback.399892/post-7369018
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/contactless-vinyl-record-playback.399892/post-7369018
Last edited:
Very nice plinth.
From there you can move on to putting wood bodies on cartidges.
Here's a Denon DL-103r getting cut apart and set in a cocobolo body...
eso
I don't see the point in using bluetooth: it implie the use of ADC and given what i've seen not a quality one. It kind of dismiss the use of vinyl in my view.*
My linear traker doesn't have remote and i don't miss it anyway: i don't care pushing play and have to make some steps to sit on my couch. Delay between pushing start and music appearing is usually long enough to be seated once music start.
Yes having your listening point located not too far from your TT and record collection make sense. That said being active each 30minute is not something i dislike. Ymmv.
Each one his own. If look is a paramount to you it's fine. Expert on youtube? Maybe yes maybe not... from what you describe i doubt he is though.
Loudspeaker location is important from a quality point of view, corner location is possible but it implies either a dedicated design or some kind of electronic treatment to counteract the effect corner loading have on loudspeakers.
People are strange and most are deaf.
You can enjoy anything as long as it fullfil your wish: some of my friends are into vinyl because of the trend.
It looks cool and different from the crowd.
Most of them are deaf to me: they use poor amp and loudspeakers in my view but keep on talking about the 'vinyl' sound and how better it is from digital... but i whitnessed they didn't hear when stylus/record is dirty nor are able to spot issues with mp3 either.
I grind most of the time when i hear this 'vinyl sound better than digital' thing and they usually don't say this kind of things to me anymore once they visit my place and listen to my system both analog and digital chain... but i get not everyone wants to follow the path i've choosen ( i bet they think i'm a psycho geek!). 🙂
Anyway they are happy with their choice, i'm with mine, this is what matter in my view.
If your loudspeaker/amp let you hear the difference between low rate mp3 and cd they'll translate vinyl perfectly fine.
* don't get me wrong i digitize most of my lp but my converters are able to reproduce analog signal without loss or adds. Mostly transparent at 24/96 which is my 'in house' standard. But it doubt most would accept to spend this much on gear ( they were tools i used to work with and as such outside range amateur would accept to pay for).
Last edited:
Can't be. Most people are average or relatively close to it, no?
Maybe you are a golden ear of some kind? That is to say, maybe on the more perceptive side of average?
Interesting. Would you be willing to describe both chains in enough detail so we can understand what you have and what you are doing with it? Thanks! 🙂
Reason I ask is last time I had a visitor here (and the system has been upgraded some since then), the comment I got from someone who 'has ears' was that the vinyl was 'superb.' Still working on better digital (which is pretty good too). Still actively working on both areas, of course.
EDIT: Side comment on the use of Bluetooth: So long as it is used to control a high quality motorized volume pot or stepped-attenuator, it might be passable.
Last edited:
I'm no golden ear. Trained listener yes, but you already knows it Mark, we had enough discussion about it in the past. Lol.
80% of people ( not musicians) i met don't hear different kind of reverbs. From this people maybe 50% can hear it once pointed to it ( trained) though.
I won't talk about audio compression ( people are so used to it through tv or radio it doesn't schock anyone to have same level between someone yelling/whispering), nor the issues related to data compressed format ( low rate mp3 with the cymbals sounding like tr808 on jazz or rock records).
You talk about average: how would you define it please? In one of my previous job i used to teach audio engineering techniques and whitnessed there was no average... usually musicians one ( most people choosing this kind of jobs are musicians) hear their instruments. Others instruments are highly variable... and i wasn't different about it until i get trained.
You are welcome to pm me about my gear, i don't see the point polluting discussion in here about it ( or navigate through the message i've posted in the past, i described it many times... not all though as gear used for audio engineering doesn't appeal people here- which is understandable as it is not the point ). I can even send you example of what i do with it if you are interested ( in the genre you listen too from what i understood from your comments here).
Maybe you didn't get my comment about analog/digital: i don't think either chain is better than the other, they are on par each with their own quality. Nothing superb in my analog one, it sounds good to me beside being bandwidth/dynamic limited and bass monoed: a vinyl pressing. My digital one is able to reproduce these issues as they are and play digital in honest manner: this is why my friend doesn't tell me about vinyl being 'better' whatever it means once they heard a 'good' digital chain. I don't need more to work or entertain.
80% of people ( not musicians) i met don't hear different kind of reverbs. From this people maybe 50% can hear it once pointed to it ( trained) though.
I won't talk about audio compression ( people are so used to it through tv or radio it doesn't schock anyone to have same level between someone yelling/whispering), nor the issues related to data compressed format ( low rate mp3 with the cymbals sounding like tr808 on jazz or rock records).
You talk about average: how would you define it please? In one of my previous job i used to teach audio engineering techniques and whitnessed there was no average... usually musicians one ( most people choosing this kind of jobs are musicians) hear their instruments. Others instruments are highly variable... and i wasn't different about it until i get trained.
You are welcome to pm me about my gear, i don't see the point polluting discussion in here about it ( or navigate through the message i've posted in the past, i described it many times... not all though as gear used for audio engineering doesn't appeal people here- which is understandable as it is not the point ). I can even send you example of what i do with it if you are interested ( in the genre you listen too from what i understood from your comments here).
Maybe you didn't get my comment about analog/digital: i don't think either chain is better than the other, they are on par each with their own quality. Nothing superb in my analog one, it sounds good to me beside being bandwidth/dynamic limited and bass monoed: a vinyl pressing. My digital one is able to reproduce these issues as they are and play digital in honest manner: this is why my friend doesn't tell me about vinyl being 'better' whatever it means once they heard a 'good' digital chain. I don't need more to work or entertain.
Last edited:
Yes, I agree. A lot of being good at listening has to do with learning how to listen for specific things. As it happens there are more things to listen for than just FR, HD/IMD, DNR, SINAD, etc., type stuff.
In the above sense most listeners are what is termed, 'naive.' They haven't been trained or else haven't trained themselves to listen for some particular, specific things (however long that process may take).
What is average though is what is measured and published in research journals, mostly in regard to naive subjects, and mostly for stuff like steady state: FR, HD/IMD, etc., (as though that's all there is to accurate reproduction).
Where maybe I will disagree a little is that hard as I try, as of today my vinyl still sounds better in sum than my digital. Not sure how much of that has to do with the ADCs used to make the digital recordings, and or has to do with other factors occurring prior to reproduction. Also could be I'm cheating a little bit relative to you by using an optical phono cart, so as to avoid that magnetic-type coloration affecting most of vinyl reproduction to some degree or other.
Last edited:
We agree about naive.
Most things can be learned about our senses. Few are gifted and don't need to learn things.
I'm kinda beware about average (even from serious study): the choices made when defining 'guinea pigs' ( subject under tests) can definetely change results.
Most study (about audio but not only) are limited in the number of participants and origins, it's very difficult to not bias before test taking place ( even abx can be biased if your subjects are 'into' audio things - students in the field, trained listeners, musicians,...).
Maybe you are right about your cartdridge idk. I'm sure you have a very desirable setup and it must be wonderful to listen to Mark.
What i know about analog is that what we prefer is not clean and transparent: i played enough with tube mic - my own circuits and commercial offer (and tube gear in general including preamp, compressor, guitar amplifiers,..)- to know microphony in tube can be a desirable attribute when it comes to what people will 'prefer'. As well as some kind of distortion profile or other artefacts.
In my view this is in the artefacts that the 'magic' lies with analog. And why i don't bother to seek something 'ultimate' about it. Just that it brings me joy and smile.
Most things can be learned about our senses. Few are gifted and don't need to learn things.
I'm kinda beware about average (even from serious study): the choices made when defining 'guinea pigs' ( subject under tests) can definetely change results.
Most study (about audio but not only) are limited in the number of participants and origins, it's very difficult to not bias before test taking place ( even abx can be biased if your subjects are 'into' audio things - students in the field, trained listeners, musicians,...).
Maybe you are right about your cartdridge idk. I'm sure you have a very desirable setup and it must be wonderful to listen to Mark.
What i know about analog is that what we prefer is not clean and transparent: i played enough with tube mic - my own circuits and commercial offer (and tube gear in general including preamp, compressor, guitar amplifiers,..)- to know microphony in tube can be a desirable attribute when it comes to what people will 'prefer'. As well as some kind of distortion profile or other artefacts.
In my view this is in the artefacts that the 'magic' lies with analog. And why i don't bother to seek something 'ultimate' about it. Just that it brings me joy and smile.