^ Agreed ...
As I try to learn more about this hobby and even some of the professional audio gear, it seems fascinating (to me) that the 'industry' settled on some standards around the voltage for sources' outputs, but there isn't anything common around what's loosely termed as the input sensitivity of a power amp or a pre-amp. You'd generally hope that given the 'standard' voltages for sources that designers of pre-amps would take that into consideration, and you could not voltage clip the pre-amp... That seems to be generally true.
However...
In hindsight, had we understood as kids what input sensitivity for power amps meant even as a concept when "Turning it up to 11" we'd have been way more successful in not torturing our equipment...
As a newcomer to the hobby, gain management from the speakers backward has been fun to try and learn. Or... as ZM terms another portion of it, signal preservation. 🙂
My brain hurts again. More coffee.
As I try to learn more about this hobby and even some of the professional audio gear, it seems fascinating (to me) that the 'industry' settled on some standards around the voltage for sources' outputs, but there isn't anything common around what's loosely termed as the input sensitivity of a power amp or a pre-amp. You'd generally hope that given the 'standard' voltages for sources that designers of pre-amps would take that into consideration, and you could not voltage clip the pre-amp... That seems to be generally true.
However...
In hindsight, had we understood as kids what input sensitivity for power amps meant even as a concept when "Turning it up to 11" we'd have been way more successful in not torturing our equipment...
As a newcomer to the hobby, gain management from the speakers backward has been fun to try and learn. Or... as ZM terms another portion of it, signal preservation. 🙂
My brain hurts again. More coffee.
see here, post #98 https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/the-marriage.390965/post-7154543
build Boo, with Edcor PC600:15K at input; that will be 5V/V gain
connect Iron Pre Bal in front of it, having 2V/V
sum is 10V/V gain, 20db exactly
pure Square Law bridged OS will run your Maggies with no sweat
...
while we are at it, considering that I already posted Gerbers for Boo and Pooh, if Boyz want them for Store (more, the merrier, bigger headache), I have no objection
nota bene - I'm lazy to check data for Edcor - how much of distortion they'll have swinging 80Vpp, I can't say
but, whatever they distort, maybe you'll like that
I got the Elcor transformers... but 20 db is a voltage ratio gain of 10, not 5? Huh? Those Elcors are a 5:1... they still don't swing enough power to fully drive the speakers. When I use my oldie tubed CJ, which has a 20V output, it does drive the F4 to their full glory... single ended.
I'll look at Boo.
If Edcors take 5v input... then I need to raise my input from 2 to 5... That will be a start.
Maggies.... not enough power.
So long as it's 2nd order....
Thanks
BTW, I guess I'll be keeping an eye on the store for the Iron Balanced.
It never ends. Just when I thought I got it nailed SE, Bal is brought up again to solve my gain problem.
Please continue the quest of the Holy Gain. 😕
Please continue the quest of the Holy Gain. 😕
Not enough. I built the Whammy and Korg but they are fine for a listening room envirement. Won't drive the D/Mono Dual Amp F6 hard enough (2 F6 amps in 1 5U case).
I'm dealing with a neighbor the past year that is common here now. I am slightly above their SPL but need more. Being on par only exacerbates the problem.
Have two BA-3 preamps almost done. One D/M with modified gain. The other stock to compare.
The only way to increase SPL is to Bi-Amp now. Need more preamps to drive Full Range and to control the subs.
All this was to go into my last shop I was building and now cannot. Just want it all finished. That there is a use for it in this range war, it keeps me going.
Police, do you need to know?
I'm dealing with a neighbor the past year that is common here now. I am slightly above their SPL but need more. Being on par only exacerbates the problem.
Have two BA-3 preamps almost done. One D/M with modified gain. The other stock to compare.
The only way to increase SPL is to Bi-Amp now. Need more preamps to drive Full Range and to control the subs.
All this was to go into my last shop I was building and now cannot. Just want it all finished. That there is a use for it in this range war, it keeps me going.
Police, do you need to know?
Well, I hope the Iron Pre SE will get it done for you.
The F6 has a gain of 14dB => ~5x
The higher gain of the Iron Pre SE is 12dB => ~4x
The lower gain of the Iron Pre SE is 6dB => ~2x
So... all in... 20x gain is possible. 10x is at the lower gain.
With the F6, Input sensitivity is listed at 2.83V. I think voltage clipping is ~14Vrms. Don't quote me on that, but it jives with what I know about the amp and 2.83 x 5 => ~14.
Tl;dr - with the Iron Pre SE set to high gain, you'd only need a source voltage of <0V7rms or so to run the F6 into clipping. With it set to low gain, you'd still only need a source voltage of 1V4rms
I don't pretend to know anything, but if SPL is what you seek.... I don't think you need more gain, I think you need more power from the power amplifier. If you turn any reasonable source up to '11' with the Iron Pre on high gain (or even low) you'll likely run the F6 to clipping.
I may be missing something ... or have something just completely dead wrong though. I always appreciate wiser people chiming in. I still get a lot of this ***-backwards.
The F6 has a gain of 14dB => ~5x
The higher gain of the Iron Pre SE is 12dB => ~4x
The lower gain of the Iron Pre SE is 6dB => ~2x
So... all in... 20x gain is possible. 10x is at the lower gain.
With the F6, Input sensitivity is listed at 2.83V. I think voltage clipping is ~14Vrms. Don't quote me on that, but it jives with what I know about the amp and 2.83 x 5 => ~14.
Tl;dr - with the Iron Pre SE set to high gain, you'd only need a source voltage of <0V7rms or so to run the F6 into clipping. With it set to low gain, you'd still only need a source voltage of 1V4rms
I don't pretend to know anything, but if SPL is what you seek.... I don't think you need more gain, I think you need more power from the power amplifier. If you turn any reasonable source up to '11' with the Iron Pre on high gain (or even low) you'll likely run the F6 to clipping.
I may be missing something ... or have something just completely dead wrong though. I always appreciate wiser people chiming in. I still get a lot of this ***-backwards.
IAIMH, Thankyou for the time in explaining this 'greek'. You are correct and I need to bridge. But. My speakers won't handle it. The highest Wattage I can muster for the Audio Nirvana 15's is 80. TBD when broken in and casework made. According to examples completed there is ample SPL. Legally here I can hit 120 DB for 15 hours.
My subs can deal with it but I'm stuck with F/R now. Multiple speakers, amps will I'm sure handle anything they can throw. Unless the lowrider clubs are called in.
The Whammy and Korg at 11 keeps the F6 flat. Why I'm thinking gain. Esp when F4 is finally up. I don't wish to enter the PA relm. That is on junk work speakers.
What do I know... New field of study for me.
I'll keep building all I got, I'm sure they will enjoy. I will!
Danke H.
My subs can deal with it but I'm stuck with F/R now. Multiple speakers, amps will I'm sure handle anything they can throw. Unless the lowrider clubs are called in.
The Whammy and Korg at 11 keeps the F6 flat. Why I'm thinking gain. Esp when F4 is finally up. I don't wish to enter the PA relm. That is on junk work speakers.
What do I know... New field of study for me.
I'll keep building all I got, I'm sure they will enjoy. I will!
Danke H.
^ Check the gain on the WHAMMY and the B1K. Unless you've modified them...
I still don't think what you're experiencing is from a lack of gain... but I've been known to be wrong ... often.
I still don't think what you're experiencing is from a lack of gain... but I've been known to be wrong ... often.
Both are stock. I really need my original shop speakers here to run. That will definately tell. I just hate to put them through hell outside.
Could be the F6 is not biased enough. It isn't. I have to complete a cooling solution. The 5U has hot spots and can't pull enough away localy. The sinks don't reach equilibrium. The amps have the highest rail V allowed. The boards are not optimum for running hot. Don't put 2 amps in one 5U unless you are
.
Could be the F6 is not biased enough. It isn't. I have to complete a cooling solution. The 5U has hot spots and can't pull enough away localy. The sinks don't reach equilibrium. The amps have the highest rail V allowed. The boards are not optimum for running hot. Don't put 2 amps in one 5U unless you are
.
something is fishy with that F6
now, measuring gain of stage with any crappy signal gene (phone or tablet or laptop will do, 400Hz to 1KHz sine) and DMM set to Vac is simple and good enough
so, you can check all line stages and amp
now, measuring gain of stage with any crappy signal gene (phone or tablet or laptop will do, 400Hz to 1KHz sine) and DMM set to Vac is simple and good enough
so, you can check all line stages and amp
We're sliding a bit off topic, but a higher bias likely will not help you...
Either way, even if you run the amps at a higher bias, you'll likely run them into voltage clipping... no good.
I'm of course speculating, but it seems like you've likely done it a number of times whilst trying to win the loudness wars. I'd definitely not hook up any 'good' speakers and subject them to that punishment if that's the case.
Either way, even if you run the amps at a higher bias, you'll likely run them into voltage clipping... no good.
I'm of course speculating, but it seems like you've likely done it a number of times whilst trying to win the loudness wars. I'd definitely not hook up any 'good' speakers and subject them to that punishment if that's the case.
Zen; IAIMH,
The war is run on Sony and NAD sand amps. For now. 100 and 40 Watts total. No Pass Amps have suffered.
MoFo done save for finishing hand werk polishing etc. Good solution as a step up to above amps. Portable. Need Gain for that.
I've only run the F6 to 57C. on the bias it's on. Pico Mod. With the Whammy and Korg. I'm machining legs/handels for it but I'm slow. Still on Mill. Cooling is compromised, no airflow under amp.
I will look into measuring. Android and micruSCUM only here. I will look for a signal gen. Google Play???
Danke for your help!
The war is run on Sony and NAD sand amps. For now. 100 and 40 Watts total. No Pass Amps have suffered.
MoFo done save for finishing hand werk polishing etc. Good solution as a step up to above amps. Portable. Need Gain for that.
I've only run the F6 to 57C. on the bias it's on. Pico Mod. With the Whammy and Korg. I'm machining legs/handels for it but I'm slow. Still on Mill. Cooling is compromised, no airflow under amp.
I will look into measuring. Android and micruSCUM only here. I will look for a signal gen. Google Play???
Danke for your help!
Loaded F/G on phone. No documentation. Need to resurrect a laptop. Then time for research. It will take time for this. Even though I 'm up as much as our omnipresant Zen seems to be.
@Holzarbeiter
app on your phone for signal gene ........ or - I can bet there are simple free progz for any 'puter platform/OS you're using
for Windrek there was SigJenny eons ago, dunno if that works on nowadays 64b systems
anyway - 400 to 1000Hz sine to stage under test, start gently
then just use your DMM to measure in and out
Voila!
quality of sine and absolute precision aren't critical - even if both measurements are sloppy/relative, you'll get your ratio, thus gain
now, if we need to talk more and more precise, let's continue in appropriate thread(s) for stages of interest
app on your phone for signal gene ........ or - I can bet there are simple free progz for any 'puter platform/OS you're using
for Windrek there was SigJenny eons ago, dunno if that works on nowadays 64b systems
anyway - 400 to 1000Hz sine to stage under test, start gently
then just use your DMM to measure in and out
Voila!
quality of sine and absolute precision aren't critical - even if both measurements are sloppy/relative, you'll get your ratio, thus gain
now, if we need to talk more and more precise, let's continue in appropriate thread(s) for stages of interest
Yes, thankyou. If android will do for now OK. I will look into m/SCUM Virus compatable. Genorator loaded and will provide Freq you desire. Now time is needed.
To put you at rest no Pass amp will suffer. MOFO will easily deal with situation as it stands.
Danke
To put you at rest no Pass amp will suffer. MOFO will easily deal with situation as it stands.
Danke
Nota bene, hunting around for parts.
The Lorlin rotary switch (Mouser 10SM160, Lorlin CK1060) is on massive backorder at Mouser but Newark has a thousand of them in stock.
The Fujitsu relays RY-12W-K or RY-24W-K are out of stock at Mouser but there's an Omron substitute at Newark in some level of inventory G5V-2-H1 DC12 and G5V-2-H1 DC24.
(If someone has a part number for the little BD139/BD140 heatsinks I'd be grateful!)
The Lorlin rotary switch (Mouser 10SM160, Lorlin CK1060) is on massive backorder at Mouser but Newark has a thousand of them in stock.
The Fujitsu relays RY-12W-K or RY-24W-K are out of stock at Mouser but there's an Omron substitute at Newark in some level of inventory G5V-2-H1 DC12 and G5V-2-H1 DC24.
(If someone has a part number for the little BD139/BD140 heatsinks I'd be grateful!)
There is a balance in the World... even the Judeo-Christian World.
As my stereos get more sublime, my son returned the Maggie 12 and CJ MF2100 I had given him and got a $1000 Bose Soundbar.
I weep for his lost soul ( I think it's his fiancee... I guess I will have to pony up some money so they can buy a house and he can get some space.. in the meantime the speakers and amp sit forlorny chez moi.