My conclusion (so far) after quite a lot of experimentation with various materials and sizes of diaphragms / exit diameters, etc:
- I haven’t found a 1” driver that gives the realism (as in live sound and big concerts) of larger diaphragms (those used in 1.4 and 2” exit drivers, i.e 3-4” diaphragms)
- trade-off of largest (4”) diaphragms is difficulty to get “hi-fi” like uhf extension and there are probably no more than 2-3 exceptions
- a modern CD with a magnetic system with a shorting ring reducing impedance/ inductance rise is a major improvement over all those old even legendary drivers
- new(er) generations of coaxial CDs (a la bms 4590) are interesting hybrids
- I recently discovered the mixed material diaphragms (e.g titanium dome with synthetic surround) and love it madly
- combination of a 3” diaphragm in mixed material with shorting ring and powerful magnetic circuit (e.g as in some B&C 900 series) is currently the nirvana for me.
There is a test of the B&C DCX354 by Vance Dickason in the May issue of sSpeaker Builder.
Regards
Charles
Regards
Charles
i have received my Faital HF1460 , in test against my HF108 simply as tweeter as i have no 1.4inch horn for the moment , but my first impression is that the HF1460 is very not as soft i would think but very clean it goes strait to 10K than decline faster to 20K ( less 10db ) , the HF108 goes higher and begin to decline at 8K but much slower to 20K at -5db . don't know wich one i will keep as they sound very different but i think for a1K crossover the HF1460 will be more pleasant.. to continue..
Hi, you must EQ them to the same to really compare. At least make them part of a system, and EQ the systems the same, or if not then evaluate which one made better system with the limitations you have.
"Those old legendary driver"
Most of them have copper or silver shorting rings (TAD,JBL,Sony, Yamaha etc). Sony SUP's/ GT sound completely copper plated even.
They have less power handling sure, and can take less abuse. But they were also made to better production standards, top of the line magnetic circuits when made, machined to closer tolerances and with less cavity resonances etc, then modren drivers that increase gap space for heat evacuation.
There is very few modern drivers that are not made for 50$ or less, off the mill in China, including some expensive and well regarded ones.
Paying for a modern driver made with the same attention to detail, machining tolerances, top of the line materials and good QC can't cost a few hundred $, it is simply not possible as the Mfg. would go loose money..
2 Tesla+, mixed material diaphragms, shorting rings etc. Has existed in Compression drivers for 70+ years already. Nothing new or exciting even
The biggest gains have been in phase plug geometry, and waveguides/horns.
That it is cheap and easily available these days is of course a big plus for many, as it is easy to buy and change and try things out.
There is still not really any new 2" driver that behaves better then a TAD 4001 after 50 years, in terms of top end performance, phase linearity, lack of breakup and resonances, well behaved impedance curves etc. Despite thousands and thousands of hours of engineering and product development, by a lot of companies. Progress is debatable.
JBLs old 2450SL for example outperforms they're newer 2452, 2453 etc easily.
But surely the new ones raises the profit margins for the Mfg. a lot due to all the shortcuts taken in design and manufacturing.
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Informative post Arez, totally agree.
Most of the products of the major audio companies today are manufactured at the lowest possible cost.
Most of the products of the major audio companies today are manufactured at the lowest possible cost.
It is noticeable even with relatively recent drivers. A few examples.
- B&C DE250 > old production (until ca. 2010, white label) measures significantly better than later production samples (black/white label).
- B&C DE500, now officially 'archived', is still better than any 1" of the current line-up > the best 1" driver with a full titanium diaphragm > probably quite expensive to manufacture.
- B&C DE25, ditto > probably the best driver with soft diaphragm (mylar)
- RCF ND1710-T3 > 2 T neo-magnet structure, 3-slot phase plug, shorting ring, mylar suspended diaphragm. There is no equivalent driver in the current line-up.
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SPOT ON!
I could not agree more, on 100% of what you said here (I highlighted a few bits for added emphasis).
Aaaah... "progress" :-(
the problem with the old productions is they are absolete , unobtainium and very expensive ..
make a mistake with a tad beryllium compression and you have no more diagram , same with ONKEN or old beauties .. i had bought a Pair of used Tad 2001 comming not at a cheap price last year and they don't mesure the same ( diagram phase plug misaligned after a choke or demagnetisation ?) so the vintage choice is not the nirvana at all .. and i don't talk about the stratospheric price for a pair of new TAD4003..
make a mistake with a tad beryllium compression and you have no more diagram , same with ONKEN or old beauties .. i had bought a Pair of used Tad 2001 comming not at a cheap price last year and they don't mesure the same ( diagram phase plug misaligned after a choke or demagnetisation ?) so the vintage choice is not the nirvana at all .. and i don't talk about the stratospheric price for a pair of new TAD4003..
They are among the best at the moment, in my (but maybe not just my) opinion.
Nice Faital drivers.
I would personally privilege the last two as the larger diaphragms are likely to give a more impactful and realistic treble once equalised passively or actively to secure uhf extension. These ketone polymer diaphragms could be very nice, including for classical music (baroque, opera, ancient). Some folks who are strongly into rock-pop and who are used to metal diaphragms will probably say these may lack some sibilance and sparkle (which may sometimes just be some resonances of titanium).
I would personally privilege the last two as the larger diaphragms are likely to give a more impactful and realistic treble once equalised passively or actively to secure uhf extension. These ketone polymer diaphragms could be very nice, including for classical music (baroque, opera, ancient). Some folks who are strongly into rock-pop and who are used to metal diaphragms will probably say these may lack some sibilance and sparkle (which may sometimes just be some resonances of titanium).
Which still doesn't change the fact that there is nothing else as good on the market today.
At any price.
But of course, the law of diminishing returns applies. To get the last 10% in performance, the cost often increases by a factor of 10x.
I think most ingredients are there to get pretty close. To start with, let’s take one of the best larger drivers from one of the PA oriented brands, and let’s have it produced with very tight tolerances and reduced gap between core and diaphragm so that it is not aimed at max output power anymore. We need no more than 110-115dB anyway 🤭
Funny no one mentions the more exotic stuff like field coil drivers à la Von Langa or Silbatec, plasma drivers à la Lansche/Corona (ok, these are not “compression”) etc
Ah yes. 18sounds. Some veeeery interesting drivers with powerful motors, hybrid diaphragms etc etc.