So you're comparing several CD/Horn combos to a 6.5" mid/dome tweeter combo? Seems like apples to oranges to me. There are pages of projects using traditional drivers. Judging from the number of speakers commercially produced and sold that are traditional drivers, many people think that's the way to go. Which is all fine and good.
But some people do like horn speakers and they certainly still show up in the "live sound" world. I would say that, IMHO, if you take that 6.5" mid/dome tweet outside for a big outdoor party playing raucous rock-n-roll and you might be terribly disappointed vs any of the horn arrangements. But that's just me.
There are still some things that measurements have a hard time capturing too. I have heard many speakers that measure very well that just don't sound good and I've heard some that measure not so great that sound magnificent. I am an engineer/scientist so sometimes admitting this is difficult 🙂 And for the most part, if a speaker measures well in all aspects, it generally sounds really good and vice versa. But it has to measure good in all aspects, not just THD and frequency response. And even then, there are some speakers that just seem to defy their measurements, so there is still something missing in the suite of measurements that are used, but it's gotten better.
Or maybe your post was in response to someone else and I'm clueless 🙂 That's certainly happened before!
Thanks, but I think you forgot to include a legend for your polar sonograms (colors--are they 1,2,3 dB or 5-15-30 dB contours, etc.) and a legend for your multiple amplitude response plots, in degrees off-axis. Assuming that I should know what each color or amplitude off-angle should mean is not a good assumption, at least for me.
Regardless of that, I have seen nothing that changes what I said about the vaned sectoral horn (i.e., Yuichi) in this post: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...rivers-today-2022.382609/page-32#post-7311748.
Thus far, I haven't seen discussion on the type of horns that I do consider much more fit-for-purpose based on current understanding of human psychoacoustics (i.e., how we hear). In general, those horns have straight non-curving sides near the throat, are generally rectangular in shape, and cover about 90x60 degrees, which seems to be a good compromise for home hi-fi listening rooms. Various designs of the exact entrance geometries are still varied, but they range from a smooth transition to more abrupt.
The JBL 365359-001 2384 horn
The Klipsch K-402 horn and the SEOS-30 horn
A dual-flare pyramidal multiple entry horn (MEH)...here the Danley SH-96 that's easily home-fabricated using Bill Waslo's Synergy Calc spreadsheet
All types shown above apparently meet their design requirements for polar coverage vs. frequency, which in my experience is the most important single requirement that a horn must provide.
Chris
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Percieved as peaking? it has a peak in it's response from a resonance obviously indeed, also visible from the spl/phase.
And it does not bother me, I have no hearing at 17khz (too much exposure to high powered weapons), along with middle age hearing loss. You would need excellent hearing/ young age to distinguish it i guess.
The horn (A 290) does EQ it down as was my point, sorry if i was not clear enough, same with the mid band. Making it easy to implement in a passive XO for DIY.
And the rising midband is common for just about any Comp.driver until the mass-break point. The 4002 exhibits that on a PWT too, or hornless but to a lesser degree.
There is also at least 2 revisions/models of TAD diaphragms, that don't behave completely identical.
As for the Diamond surround, I'm aware of the intention, and how it was designed to interact with the coherent wave phase plug, it was quite clear in JBL literature, and described several times on the L.H forums. And that they have issues is not a big secret, there is a reason they started coating BE diaphragms with Aquaplas. And G.T on another forum commented a few times, it improves the performance, most notably in the time domain even for the BE drivers.
But the solid surround should extended the response slightly higher then the Radians PEK surround. Wether it is a better solution is another discussion, a 2 part diaphragm with a different surround, can be designed to damp or avoid some resonances.
I am well aware you are very familiar with the JBL and TAD drivers/horns, have been through some of your previous projects online. Nice work btw🙂
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The PR 614 is a very good match for the Radian 745 1,4" for example. I know there are some people here that have used that combo.
They will not blend perfectly (755/PR614), but does not mean they will not sound good. I have not tried the combo, i just pointed out some things to think about with the proposed design.
To cross over as low as you intended is also possible i guess, then you need to cross over below where the horn looses it's pattern control.
Instead of matching the directivity at xo with the 60x40 at 1,3-1,6k ish somewhere. It is easy enough to try.
The intended 12PR320 as you now mentioned, has noticeable breakup" at 2,5k and beyond, so the lower crossing will make it easier to implement, and possibly sounding better.
You did not mention room size / placement etc.
A 60x40 like the PR614 and XT1464 is often advised for smaller rooms to deal with reflections.
You mentioned HT and Parties if you want to cover a wide area like a sofa group or room, a 90x40/50/60 or similar is often advised.
https://audioexperiment.com/tools/vertical-reflections/
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I simply was evaluating a recent run of various measurements of devices I have on hand and posted some of the results on this thread. I included the mid\dome as a comparison to show they are becoming competitive in some respects to horns\CDs. For most of audio history mid\domes were terrible in comparison to CD\horns. I agree the mid\dome won't hold up to most pro use except maybe a playback studio. I also agree with the rest of your reply too.
There does exist a "similar" large 1.4", for those who want to experiment and have the space.
I have not tried it or seen measurements, so don't shoot me if they do not behave as well, or of lesser build quality.
They do have a different geometry obviously.
The horns/waveguides are cheap at least, shipping depend on your country.
https://jsoundaudio.en.made-in-chin...eter-Horn-Speaker-760-390-290h-1-4-108B-.html
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Apologies for my hopeless misuse of these technical terms. 🙂 By Fc I mean the horn cutoff freq.
I found the max horn Fc I can tolerate is an altec 511. I also like the xover freq to be above the horn cutoff by at least couple of hundred Hz. I would like to understand why. Probably I had driver/horn mismatch issues.
Ah, thanks very much for that info. I did not know the PR614 was designed for an exit of 10 degrees, nor did I know which drivers have an exit of 10 degrees, nor do I know where to find that information! haha Seems like that info would be valuable to both sides as you would think they would prefer their equipment be properly matched in order to make it sound the best.
I had tentatively chosen the 755ND as a CD because everyone always says how great it is, including yourself. So it seems I might be better of changing one or the other, either swapping the 755 for the radian 745 (which also looks like a nice driver) or swapping the horn for something else. My initial thought would be to change the horn for multiple reasons. The 755ND does have a lot of good recommendations, and you are right in that a 90x40/50/60 would probably be better for my circumstances.
My room is fairly large, some 40'x25' with the listening area around 12-15' from the speakers. Unfortunately the ceiling is only 8' high. And yes, the speakers will be used sometimes for outdoor parties. The speakers are NOT against a wall or corner and the room is used for both HT and audio, although audio is probably more important.
The crossover will definitely not be as high as 2.5K. But my initial crossover point of around 700hz is probably a bit ambitious. Although several have pointed out good results at 800hz with similar CD/horn combos. I would say 1.2-1.4K would be the max I would think of going, but if I change horns maybe a lower freq would be ok. The iwata, SEOS, Yuichi, and JMLC designs all look like things I could be interested in reviewing but I try to limit my research to things I can actually buy and all of those seem to be hard to find in the US.
Also, don't misinterpret any of my comments. I really appreciate all your input. This is why I take an idea of a plan and post it. The best way to get the plan to something good is to allow others to shoot holes in the plan, change the plans, and try again until you get something worth spending thousands of dollars on. From your input and more reading, I'm still thinking about the 755ND driver along with a better matching and possibly lower frequency horn. What that horn is? I'm not sure yet. The fallback would be to use the Radian 745 with the PR614, but due to dispersion factors that maybe isn't the best choice either.
Interestingly I just got a quote back for a Yuichi A-290 style horn that is fairly attractive. So now that's becoming an option. A bit larger and wider than I had hoped, but a compromise I might be willing to make.
I know that was originally designed for the Tad 4001, which has some unique things about it and is also a 2" CD. How do the A-290s with adapters for 1.4" CD's perform? Would that work well with the Behma CP755s? I also found a pair of used Tad 4001s here in the US for a reasonable price, so maybe that would be better. Some people in this thread have noted that the newer CDs like the CP755s sound better than the 4001, subjective of course, but interesting.
I know that was originally designed for the Tad 4001, which has some unique things about it and is also a 2" CD. How do the A-290s with adapters for 1.4" CD's perform? Would that work well with the Behma CP755s? I also found a pair of used Tad 4001s here in the US for a reasonable price, so maybe that would be better. Some people in this thread have noted that the newer CDs like the CP755s sound better than the 4001, subjective of course, but interesting.
Are you getting the A-290 from Attila? If so you're going to be happy with the results! I can guarantee it. If you go that route, just get yourself a pair of used TD-4001 or TD-4002 and solve your stereo problem, permanently. 😉You're just parking your money, 20y from now when they stop making these drivers you can sell the whole lot for twice as much as you paid.
Awesome, fit for purpose horns designed for the type of drivers that are being made today. Sounds great!
But, where can you actually buy any of these horns? The ones you listed above are mostly out of production, so they aren't new and don't seem to be designed for the latest drivers. Or at least that's the best I can find.
It looks to me like it's very difficult these days to buy horns that produce down to the 300-500hz range, much less large horns that are made using the latest in computer technology to produce the best results. You didn't like the A-290 horns, essentially saying they were out of date and that we can do better. But where? I can't seem to find horns that measure any better than those. I'm sure modern computer technology can design better horns, but I haven't found where you can buy better horns.
If you search the internet, you can also find a subjective comparison of the JBL 2384 to a much larger horn. At least that reviewer didn't think it compared well at all. Maybe the thing I'm learning is that it really takes a very large horn to sound good and new designs (if you can find them) aren't necessarily all the much better than old tried and true designs. Size matters it seems. Maybe I would be better off building a very large horn, maybe like your Danley SH-96 you mention. Maybe a larger horn, even with less optimal design, is better than a smaller horn with optimal design? Interesting subject.
I did get a quote from Attila. It's cheaper than I thought, still not cheap. I do have a source for a pair of 4001's for around $1000. So basically the same price as a pair of the ones I've been looking at. Also, I've looked at a few videos and I think I'm capable of making a set of those. Question is, do I want to spend the time and effort or just purchase them. Decisions decisions!
For real? $1000 for a pair? A pair of real TD4001 with original Be diaphragm go for $3.5 to $4k and it should come with response curves. Anything less than that I would be seriously concerned.
Can you machine the adapters? Those are absolutely critical.
Can you machine the adapters? Those are absolutely critical.
Sounds like you find it hard to do any DIY...😆
Only the SEOS-30 seems to be hard to get and that's in the US (It's always been hard to get--the Polish enterprise apparently won't respond to email requests for information or orders from the US)--but I'm told it's still available in the EU. The JBL horn is available here, and the K-402 is available here as the KPT-402-HF assembly (talk to Cory--he'll know what you want).
The MEH horn is a DIY that can be built out of plywood or MDF, based on your specific needs. Bill Waslo's Synergy Calc spreadsheet is available here. This is probably your best "bang-for-buck" and is totally customizable to your specific needs.
There are other horns that will also do the trick, and my intent in the posting that you reference was to highlight but a few of the horns that are available. The K-402 is the basis of the new $35K/pair Klipsch Heritage Jubilees, and the JBL horn is sold as the HF horn on the JBL 4722N loudspeaker.
Chris
I don't really understand this "can't quote the last post thing, but ok.
Cask05 said - "Sounds like you find it hard to do any DIY!"
Haha, too funny. Thanks for the links.
Cask05 said - "Sounds like you find it hard to do any DIY!"
Haha, too funny. Thanks for the links.
Here's one horn that's a clone of the original K-510 horn (2" throat) that's good down to ~500 Hz: https://www.ebay.com/itm/233808725468
Chris
Chris
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I am so used to looking at them that I instinctively know what they are, but of course not everyone has that benefit. The legends can really intrude and make the pictures huge which is why they are not there, the heatmap style polars not so much. The majority are 2dB per colour and one set is 3dB for some reason, they have less colours. The multiple curves are made from the number of observation points within the spread of the polar plot. That is either 5 or 10 degrees, given the number of curves it looks like 5.
Trying to explain why you are both wrong and right is difficult and complicated, I have no appetite for that which is why I did not address it.
Select the text in the post you want to quote and a quote button will appear below it which you can click.