So do I, and so do many people when given the comparison. I've seen it happen in listening tests.
Having recently retired after 47 years in live audio and video, I can relate. Much of what I learned in live audio is what a huge difference the room makes. It's usually the largest contributor to the sound (give similar systems). But sometimes switching out one piece if gear in a large system can make a significant audible difference.
My experience is different, I've heard and owned a number of Class-D amps that I found better than Class-AB. Better than a very good Class-A amp, probably not. But not all Class-A amps are great. The Icepower sounded great on my modified Altec A5 system. I found it very clean and neutral, and what it did for the bass transformed the system to such a degree that everything else sounded good! Some people told me that the Ice was "soft on the top" but I just found it unobtrusive up high. It didn't have the grunge that so many transistor amps do, a grunge that I wonder if people are so used to, that they take it as neutral. Did I stick with Class-D full range? No, of course not.
Had to go with SET and SEP running the horns. Was it fun to do? Sure. Did it sound better than the Ice running the whole system? Meh.
Well yes, I can't argue with that. Most of the people that I see with a lack of goals are newbs. Many fade away, others learn and stick around.
Hate to tell you, but you are already there. 😉 Look at the projects that people are working on, or better yet threads about having too many projects going on at once or the number of abandoned projects. Tinkering is what most of us do. That's a big part of the hobby.
Yes. Its subjective. But its a well educated version of subjective. Not that others can't detect nuances, they just can't quantify them due to the lack of experience. Our brains form neuron path ways based on our own conditioning over the years. That's how a conductor in an orchestra can pick up on a single wrong note played in a sea of like instruments or a pitcher can place a baseball exactly where he wants to at over 80 mph over ad over again.
Hearing exact things in an audio system isn't hard to do if you're in tune to it, but you need an accurate reference and have to keep that reference calibrated. It takes discipline to do that, most importantly knowing the reason for what you're perceiving and being able to repeatedly pick up on it.
I had several given to me to test. The 50asx was one of them, along with some of the big monoblocks. They all had a similar neutral sound for me, but what I settled on was the bigger brother of the 50asx, the 125asx. For me it was the sweetspot and had more then enough power to run my rig. I remember the 50 as very similar, but "maybe" with less grunt. My feeling was that the onboard PSU designed as part of the amp made an audible improvement over other amps.
Thats why I mentioned the IcePower stuff. Its the best in its class to date, but it still falls short of class A or AB. Mind you that my "falling short" is likely another person's "too close to call". Thats why I posted what I did. Its frustrating to be insanely picky, but it comes with the territory of having worked on the best stuff money can buy and doing it for people who will spend any amount to get what they think is the best available in that moment in time.So do I, and so do many people when given the comparison. I've seen it happen in listening tests.
Having recently retired after 47 years in live audio and video, I can relate. Much of what I learned in live audio is what a huge difference the room makes. It's usually the largest contributor to the sound (give similar systems). But sometimes switching out one piece if gear in a large system can make a significant audible difference.
My experience is different, I've heard and owned a number of Class-D amps that I found better than Class-AB. Better than a very good Class-A amp, probably not. But not all Class-A amps are great. The Icepower sounded great on my modified Altec A5 system. I found it very clean and neutral, and what it did for the bass transformed the system to such a degree that everything else sounded good! Some people told me that the Ice was "soft on the top" but I just found it unobtrusive up high. It didn't have the grunge that so many transistor amps do, a grunge that I wonder if people are so used to, that they take it as neutral. Did I stick with Class-D full range? No, of course not.
I could live with dual mono IcePower modules coupled with Lundahl xformers. The 500asp modules sound great if they're used correctly. I'd prefer them over any higher end pro amp. They have the most natural top end of any Class D module. Shockingly the TPA3255 in the right PCB layout is really good. I have a small Chi-fi amp with that chip which sounds quite nice, even compared to some of the best higher end Japanese integrated amps.
I'm insanely picky, and have heard and worked on some pretty good stuff, but nothing truly exceptional. Everything has its strengths and weaknesses. I am coming to accept the limitation, strangely my waning auditory prowess 🤣 has not made the task of finding the acceptable any easier, but at least I do quickly recognize the unacceptable.
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It may be that the TAD TD-4001s were an answer for that particular horn, but certainly not the one that I'd currently recommend (not the least of which is their ~25 pound Alnico magnets). (I'd probably recommend a much less expensive BMS 4592ND bi-amped/with DSP crossover for considerably less cost--which the OP to that thread would probably also have rejected...) The Yuichi horn wasn't something that I'd recommend either--being much more a product from the nostalgia domain than, say, today's full-range horn design requirements for modern full-range 2" or 1.4/1.5" compression drivers--based on psychoacoustic needs of human hearing. I stayed away from the entire subject because the initial "put" of that particular horn as the only apparent non-tradable piece was way off the course that I'd recommend.
It was once my job to be effective at helping those with definite goals (e.g., wanting to do the job much better/effectively) to see that they often needed to trade away existing stuff that they thought was non-tradable to get much more of what they actually wanted--i.e., product or system performance for lowest price. But that's a whole 'nother subject.
Chris
That's a hasty generalization mixed with a sort of "appeal to authority." It assumes that your experience with "the best money can buy" gear is more valid - and better - than someone else's experience. It's an easy trap to fall into and dangerous when you don't know the experience of others.
If you say that you haven't found Class-D to be to your tastes as compared to other types, that's fine. And if I say that I found Class-D as good or better than AB, that's fine. But when you imply that I might be wrong because you have worked with the best money can buy, that's a fallacy. You may well be right, but you are getting there the wrong way.
Valid, but the thread slid off the cliff into power amps for CDs awhile ago. It looks like the original subject might have been exhausted.
I wish I could find reasonably priced TD4001s that were in nice shape with original diaphragms. Those are the pinnacle of 2" drivers IMO.
I remember using TADs to retrofit various Westlake monitors. The problem was keeping them from being blown up by heavy handed, intoxicated engineers and producers, as they're not as durable as other drivers, even with appropriate limiting.
I remember using TADs to retrofit various Westlake monitors. The problem was keeping them from being blown up by heavy handed, intoxicated engineers and producers, as they're not as durable as other drivers, even with appropriate limiting.
Indeed they were. Likely because that horn was designed for those drivers.
I have these, and like them quite a lot. Would they work well on the Yuichi? I don't know. But there is not much to reproach about the 4001 on the Yuichi, much to my surprise.
I did see a crossover burst into flames once, protecting the TAD drivers attached to it. 😀
There are apparently so many not-so-good class D amplifiers that I've run into that if I were considering recommending one, I'd be talking only about a specific amplifier design by a specific manufacturer--not about class D generally. I don't recommend any currently.
It's just like horns--there are A LOT MORE not-so-good horn designs than good ones in my experience (especially those designed more than 25 years ago--and by those engineers that actually know what they're trying to achieve and what to avoid). So I recommend specific horns--not horns in general. Starting with a not-so-well-performing horn is a fatal flaw in my experience.
I'd also have to convince the recipient of my advice that my hearing is good. That's the most difficult part, I've found. I've found that there are plenty of nostalgists that don't really have very good ears, unfortunately (and particularly those that don't get up out of their listening chairs to check off-axis performance), but they apparently instead have ears that have accommodated to the sound that they've heard for years. This is a difficult subject to broach. Basically, you have to build credibility, but eventually the recipient has to actually listen to a truly good setup that really does its job well in today's performance terms (in my experience). It's a very easy task continuing the conversation after that point.
How does the above relate to the subject of this thread? Very directly, fortunately, when you start talking about goal sound quality in-room instead of "hardware solutions" and "plug-and-play" recommendations with certain horns, etc.
Chris
Wasn't intended to come across as being superior or above others. I've always struggled to convey where I am in my professional experience and tried to stay away from comparing skill sets. The problem is most people don't care to take the time to see the little things that make a big difference, assuming that no one else does or should do either. There are alot of bluffers in this world that need to be noticed, especially in the US. When you're paid to be very picky, it becomes so much more of a focus to you - most others don't care to believe or understand that you are truly able to do so, plus they pick on you for being unnaturally gifted in certain areas. You eventually get frustrated with this over time. When I came to this country in the early 90s, I was shocked at how many "fake it til you make it" people there were in the audio business. Those are the people I'm trying to separate myself from by saying what I do. I don't like people who shamelessly take advantage of others.
I get very frustrated when someone tells me there's no way I can hear something that isn't quantifiable with measurment equipment. It then becomes an argument over "subjective" opinion, yet i can hear it repeatedly with my own ears. This sickens me. I don't need people to tell me I'm not hearing what I do just because they can't do so themselves. I've had plenty of arguments with people like Gedlee over this sort of thing.
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My mistake but it was to get advice on which amp I should get, in the nice and friendly way, as I have always experienced here.
I also think it is not a stupid idea as CD can give more noise and details due to efficiency.
But no polemic.