Thank Panos,
I've been feeling a bit better this afternoon. So I've done a little gentle testing.
I haven't measured the voltage across the motor whilst playing. I'll try to get around to doing this soon. If my calculations are correct it should be 4.9volts for 33 1/3rpm.
So far running my new Maxon at ~300rpm hasn't shown any speed stability issues but it is early days. For most of the time that I was using the Premotec I was running at closer to 500rpm and had only recently moved to the larger pulley and slower motor speed. To be honest I didn't hear much difference with the slower motor speed. Definitely no loss of speed stability, a slight improvement in transparency and fine detail was about it.
I have just poked the new motor with my stethoscope being driven by the Ultra controller. The level of motor noise is dramatically lower than when I first tested whilst driven by the Advanced controller. I will have to drop the Advanced back in to compare, see how much difference is due to break-in and how much is due to the difference in controller. The difference in motor noise when switching from 33 to 45rpm was subjectively about double which would line up pretty well with motor noise being proportional to the square of motor speed.
Having let the Ultra break in for a few days has definitely improved things. From new it sounded a bit tipped up towards the top end. This is revealing itself with run in to be an improvement in transient attack and transparency. Decay also seems to have improved. This is likely to be due to a lowering of the noise floor. Further listening is required to make sure that this is not at the expense of tonality. So far it's looking like the Ultra might be a keeper.
Niffy
I've been feeling a bit better this afternoon. So I've done a little gentle testing.
I haven't measured the voltage across the motor whilst playing. I'll try to get around to doing this soon. If my calculations are correct it should be 4.9volts for 33 1/3rpm.
So far running my new Maxon at ~300rpm hasn't shown any speed stability issues but it is early days. For most of the time that I was using the Premotec I was running at closer to 500rpm and had only recently moved to the larger pulley and slower motor speed. To be honest I didn't hear much difference with the slower motor speed. Definitely no loss of speed stability, a slight improvement in transparency and fine detail was about it.
I have just poked the new motor with my stethoscope being driven by the Ultra controller. The level of motor noise is dramatically lower than when I first tested whilst driven by the Advanced controller. I will have to drop the Advanced back in to compare, see how much difference is due to break-in and how much is due to the difference in controller. The difference in motor noise when switching from 33 to 45rpm was subjectively about double which would line up pretty well with motor noise being proportional to the square of motor speed.
Having let the Ultra break in for a few days has definitely improved things. From new it sounded a bit tipped up towards the top end. This is revealing itself with run in to be an improvement in transient attack and transparency. Decay also seems to have improved. This is likely to be due to a lowering of the noise floor. Further listening is required to make sure that this is not at the expense of tonality. So far it's looking like the Ultra might be a keeper.
Niffy
I've just checked the voltage across the motor.
I calculated the motor speed based on the middle of the belt. This would have resulted in a voltage of 4.9v.
The measured voltage was somewhat higher at 5.6v.
If I had calculated based on the inside of the belt, ie the diameter of the pulley and sub-platter, it would have been 5.6v.
Learnt something new.
Niffy
I calculated the motor speed based on the middle of the belt. This would have resulted in a voltage of 4.9v.
The measured voltage was somewhat higher at 5.6v.
If I had calculated based on the inside of the belt, ie the diameter of the pulley and sub-platter, it would have been 5.6v.
Learnt something new.
Niffy
That's very interesting information, Niffy. Thank you. You seem to be working your motor at a quite healthy voltage.
In comparison my Premotec 18105 is working at 2.52V at my Roksan Xerxes. I wonder whether that (low) voltage may contribute to some speed fluctuations from day to day. Should I try to increase the voltage perhaps? That would mean of course that I would have to create a motor pulley with a smaller diameter than the one I have now. Thoughts, please?
Thanks
Panos.
In comparison my Premotec 18105 is working at 2.52V at my Roksan Xerxes. I wonder whether that (low) voltage may contribute to some speed fluctuations from day to day. Should I try to increase the voltage perhaps? That would mean of course that I would have to create a motor pulley with a smaller diameter than the one I have now. Thoughts, please?
Thanks
Panos.
With my Premotec motor I was running at less than 2V and didn't notice any obvious speed instability. With the Maxon everything is rock solid so it is possible that the Premotec had stability issues right on the edge of perception. Though I think increased torque and decreased torque ripple are more likely reasons. The reason I selected the 226764 was so that I would be running at around 5V. With my deck I would be running around 2-2.5V with the DCX22L, which the OL controller seems quite happy with.
The OL motor upgrade is designed to accommodate virtually any deck. With decks where the belt runs around the perimeter of the platter motor speed would be ~1300rpm and voltage would be ~5V. One of the main decks the upgrade is aimed at is the Linn LP12. On this deck motor speed is ~725rpm at ~2.75V.
I don't think that your 2.52V is too low as the controller and motor both work well at this voltage. To increase the voltage with your current motor would increase motor speed so you would have to reduce the size of your pulley/drive wheel. As you are running as a rim drive I would say that reducing the radius of the pulley will almost certainly increase rolling noise. You will notice that with most rim drive decks the drive wheel is 35-50mm in diameter.
I believe that VPI rim drives have the drive wheel decoupled from the motor by a flexible coupling. The drive wheel being supported by its own bearings so that the motor bearings are not unduly loaded. I also believe that the motor for their rim drives are specifically designed for low speed in a similar way to direct drive motors.
Do you leave the drive wheel in contact with the platter when not in use? This can cause a flat spot to begin to develop. Once a flat spot begins the motor will most likely stop at this location.
Niffy
The OL motor upgrade is designed to accommodate virtually any deck. With decks where the belt runs around the perimeter of the platter motor speed would be ~1300rpm and voltage would be ~5V. One of the main decks the upgrade is aimed at is the Linn LP12. On this deck motor speed is ~725rpm at ~2.75V.
I don't think that your 2.52V is too low as the controller and motor both work well at this voltage. To increase the voltage with your current motor would increase motor speed so you would have to reduce the size of your pulley/drive wheel. As you are running as a rim drive I would say that reducing the radius of the pulley will almost certainly increase rolling noise. You will notice that with most rim drive decks the drive wheel is 35-50mm in diameter.
I believe that VPI rim drives have the drive wheel decoupled from the motor by a flexible coupling. The drive wheel being supported by its own bearings so that the motor bearings are not unduly loaded. I also believe that the motor for their rim drives are specifically designed for low speed in a similar way to direct drive motors.
Do you leave the drive wheel in contact with the platter when not in use? This can cause a flat spot to begin to develop. Once a flat spot begins the motor will most likely stop at this location.
Niffy
Hi Guy's, A few years ago, while developing my Mylar belt drive T/T I had a O/L controller & was looking at how to upgrade.
The I came across a blog where the user stated (Even the cheapest of Chinese DC voltage controller's work better that the O/L unit)
Cheers
The I came across a blog where the user stated (Even the cheapest of Chinese DC voltage controller's work better that the O/L unit)
Cheers
Hi, I am using a Portescap 26N 5821EE motor & my motor controller is made up of a 12 VDC clamp circuit, the two switchable DC voltage controllers for 33 & 45. I had tried running this with batteries & good quality 18VDC SMPS. Could not tell the difference between the two so now I use the SMPS all the time. It drives a Lenco 75 double platter. I have also tried it with my Tech SP15, while it's not quite as good as the SP15, it gets very close.
Another person who has used the Origin Live controller extensively, then had a dedicated controller built by an expert designer for his Maxon EC-max motor, finally ended up using a Chinese bench supply. Interesting.
Anybody else using a bench power supply?
From my side I am making serious progress with the conversion of my Premotec 18105 motor to rim-drive the inner rim of the top platter of my Xerxes. I just need to build a heavier motor pod and then take some new measurements. I have a simple setup in my head and I hope to execute it next week.
I will soon report my findings.
Anybody else using a bench power supply?
From my side I am making serious progress with the conversion of my Premotec 18105 motor to rim-drive the inner rim of the top platter of my Xerxes. I just need to build a heavier motor pod and then take some new measurements. I have a simple setup in my head and I hope to execute it next week.
I will soon report my findings.
Hi, The trick to using Chinese voltage controllers is to have lots of mass in the platter. The new $5,000 Yamaha 5000 T/T does a similar thing and also uses Under-Hang alignment on it's arm. Quite a break from tradition.
Cheers
Cheers
So, I have been tinkering with the rim-drive conversion of my Roksan Xerxes. I think I've managed a quite respectable result, as the wow & flutter I am getting (via my iphone 13) is approx. 0.15%. All that with my Premotec 18105 motor and the Origin Live Advanced controller. Just for comparison, i am also getting the same result (perhaps marginally higher) with my newly restored Lenco L78 (with upgraded aftermarket bearing).
What remains is to do some auditioning with the 'rim-drive' Xerxes and see if I can detect any differences from its previous belt-drive incarnation.
My quest for a new motor and/or controller has not ceased. Just out of curiosity...
What remains is to do some auditioning with the 'rim-drive' Xerxes and see if I can detect any differences from its previous belt-drive incarnation.
My quest for a new motor and/or controller has not ceased. Just out of curiosity...
Hi, They are quite high fugues & you certainly will hear the effect say, on sustained piano.
My Lenco DC motor/Mylar belt drive around the perimeter is around 0.06. My other standard Lenco (again reconditioned) was was also quite good at 0.07, which is the same as when originally released.
I have also seen another L/H member who got his down to 0.04!!.
However new system should be a bit tight & will use should free up a little & improve the performance. Have you tried running the O/L from a Nicad DC battery around 12 VDC, that simple change improves the controller.
Cheers
My Lenco DC motor/Mylar belt drive around the perimeter is around 0.06. My other standard Lenco (again reconditioned) was was also quite good at 0.07, which is the same as when originally released.
I have also seen another L/H member who got his down to 0.04!!.
However new system should be a bit tight & will use should free up a little & improve the performance. Have you tried running the O/L from a Nicad DC battery around 12 VDC, that simple change improves the controller.
Cheers
Having a lot of mass is a trick for all controllers, not only the bench power supplies. Isn't that right? In my case (with the Xerxes) the only way to substantially increase the rotational inertia without adding too much weight is to add an oversized (14") top platter, replacing the current 12" one. This will increase the flywheel effect of the platter.
The question again is whether I should go for a bench power supply, instead of a more dedicated linear power supply. In either case, I guess I would be able to replace the Origin Live controller. But i am still wondering which component would yield more improvement. The controller or the motor? Or both?
My Premotec 18105 motor is audibly very quiet (even 10cm from it), but if you touch it, you can feel the cogging effect. I do not know how easy it is to achieve such low wow & flutter values with a motor having such vibrations.
I can definitely experiment with the motor's input voltages, as my power pack allows to choose the voltage. I can try 12V, 9V, 7.5V, 6V and less. Easy to compare... From previous tests with the Origin Live controller and the said motor, lower voltages have produced better results. I can re-run the test, now that I can measure wow & flutter.
I have not tried a battery though.
Hi, I had a O/L kit before I went to my current set up. Changing to the Portescap motor was instantly better, then I made the DC controller & it stepped up again. I sold the 1st version & made a 2nd with 45RPM. The guy I sold it to emailed to advise it was definitely better & quieter than his O/L unit. Also using the Mylar belt makes another significant improvement.
Cheers
Cheers
I've read this entire thread.
At the start of the thread, several posters were keen to (potentially) improve the ORIGIN LIVE ADVANCED DC Motor Kit controller.
We too run the ORIGIN LIVE ADVANCED DC Motor Kit on our beloved LP12 and very much enjoy the sound quality it delivers.
If only we could cure it of the regular and dead annoying speed-drift!
This ORIGIN LIVE speed-drift also seemed to impact other posters in this thread - but this thread seemed to segue into motor changes, rim-drive experiments, etc. so no speed-drift resolution.
In an attempt to revert to the intentions of the OP's starting point, has anyone had the chance to look to the original ORIGIN LIVE ADVANCED DC motor controller PCB and suggest some upgrades?
[I have checked our controller PCB and there are NO signs of any heat damaged components of leaky caps. Through-hole componentry should make it fairly easy to work on. I'd be VERY happy to provide full photographs and all the details, if any learned soul was prepared to help me analyse and improve the ORIGIN LIVE PCB...]
At the start of the thread, several posters were keen to (potentially) improve the ORIGIN LIVE ADVANCED DC Motor Kit controller.
We too run the ORIGIN LIVE ADVANCED DC Motor Kit on our beloved LP12 and very much enjoy the sound quality it delivers.
If only we could cure it of the regular and dead annoying speed-drift!
This ORIGIN LIVE speed-drift also seemed to impact other posters in this thread - but this thread seemed to segue into motor changes, rim-drive experiments, etc. so no speed-drift resolution.
In an attempt to revert to the intentions of the OP's starting point, has anyone had the chance to look to the original ORIGIN LIVE ADVANCED DC motor controller PCB and suggest some upgrades?
[I have checked our controller PCB and there are NO signs of any heat damaged components of leaky caps. Through-hole componentry should make it fairly easy to work on. I'd be VERY happy to provide full photographs and all the details, if any learned soul was prepared to help me analyse and improve the ORIGIN LIVE PCB...]
Hey Panos!
Thanks for jumping in.
I purchased our OL ADVANCED DC MOTOR KIT in 2004 and includes a DC-100 motor, whatever that means. At 33RPM, our ADVANCED DC speed controller outputs around 3.85V and is (only) just enough to get the LINN platter moving. But once spinning, sounds sublime.
Nearly 20-years later and the motor still runs beautifully, smoothly and quietly - a stethoscope can pick-up a bit of noise, but it is otherwise hard to hear it running.
For the last ten years, we have run it on an iFi iPower 9V low-noise wall-wart, which improved the sound quality, I guess by reducing mains noise and helping the motor to run more smoothly.
The speed-drift is the only problem. I know stable speed is ANALOG 101, but frankly the thing sounds so damned good most of the time, we tolerate the speed-drift.
We changed the controller internal board in September 2018 - due to speed-drift - to what looks to be a very early Mark 12 PCB. The PCB itself is not the shiny (deep) green that I have seen in others photos - more of a pasty, pale green, and the circuit tracks are none too obvious on the component side of the PCB. It performed beautifully for about 3-years, then began to drift - but I cannot see any signs of component deterioration.
I am about to try a 9V Linear Power Transformer, to see if that helps at all.
Hopefully, this states the current situation.
Thanks for jumping in.
I purchased our OL ADVANCED DC MOTOR KIT in 2004 and includes a DC-100 motor, whatever that means. At 33RPM, our ADVANCED DC speed controller outputs around 3.85V and is (only) just enough to get the LINN platter moving. But once spinning, sounds sublime.
Nearly 20-years later and the motor still runs beautifully, smoothly and quietly - a stethoscope can pick-up a bit of noise, but it is otherwise hard to hear it running.
For the last ten years, we have run it on an iFi iPower 9V low-noise wall-wart, which improved the sound quality, I guess by reducing mains noise and helping the motor to run more smoothly.
The speed-drift is the only problem. I know stable speed is ANALOG 101, but frankly the thing sounds so damned good most of the time, we tolerate the speed-drift.
We changed the controller internal board in September 2018 - due to speed-drift - to what looks to be a very early Mark 12 PCB. The PCB itself is not the shiny (deep) green that I have seen in others photos - more of a pasty, pale green, and the circuit tracks are none too obvious on the component side of the PCB. It performed beautifully for about 3-years, then began to drift - but I cannot see any signs of component deterioration.
I am about to try a 9V Linear Power Transformer, to see if that helps at all.
Hopefully, this states the current situation.
Panos,
I recently tried a Chinese Bench DC Power Supply - direct to our ORIGIN LIVE (OL) DC-100 motor and thereby (temporarily) removing the OL ADVANCED DC Motor Speed Controller from the equation.
Certainly, the Chinese Bench DC Power Supply kept very solid speed control running all night - with no drift at all - but there were two issues which precluded its long-term use: -
1. The voltage gradient was not fine enough to get the speed exactly 33.33RPM - measured by strobe. At the available voltages, it either ran a bit fast or a bit slow; and
2. There seemed to be no easy way to set 33RPM and 45RPM for easy switching.
It was certainly an eye-opener and confirmed to be that there was nothing wrong with our (nearly) 20-year-old OL DC-100 motor, or our turntable belt!Hence my enthusiasm to improve the ORIGIN LIVE ADVANCED DC Motor Speed Control Unit... 😉
Hi Sondeknz,
thanks for the interesting input.
I must have bought my Origin Live around 2000 (if I remember correctly). At that time Origin Live did not offer but one motor type, and that was the Premotec 18105. They had not started designating it as DC100, DC200, etc. at that time.
I also found the change to the O/L motor kit as a worthy upgrade over the Roksan Xerxes motor of that time. Perhaps I did not have the necessary knowledge then to fine-tune the Xerxes motor, so my comparison may have not been fair.
Anyways, back to the problem you are facing with the O/L speed drift. Can you please give more details about how you define the speed drift you are experiencing? Is it speed instability in the same record track? Or difference in speed between the start and the end of the record? Or speed differences after listening for a while, say 30 minutes after the beginning of the listening session? Or speed differences between different days? And last but not least, how do you detect the speed drift? By listening or measuring? And in case you measure, how do you do it?
When you are trying to set the speed, do you do it with the stylus on the record or off the record?
By the way, it's great that the bench power supply was able to keep the speed stable. I understand that such power supplies have 'coarse' and 'fine-tuning' knobs? I assume you've tried the latter, too.
I wonder whether the trimmers on the O/L controller oxidize somehow and thus they may work off-spec. Many pots need some cleaning fluid every now and then... My two cents.
But most important is to understand how you define speed drift. Thanks.
thanks for the interesting input.
I must have bought my Origin Live around 2000 (if I remember correctly). At that time Origin Live did not offer but one motor type, and that was the Premotec 18105. They had not started designating it as DC100, DC200, etc. at that time.
I also found the change to the O/L motor kit as a worthy upgrade over the Roksan Xerxes motor of that time. Perhaps I did not have the necessary knowledge then to fine-tune the Xerxes motor, so my comparison may have not been fair.
Anyways, back to the problem you are facing with the O/L speed drift. Can you please give more details about how you define the speed drift you are experiencing? Is it speed instability in the same record track? Or difference in speed between the start and the end of the record? Or speed differences after listening for a while, say 30 minutes after the beginning of the listening session? Or speed differences between different days? And last but not least, how do you detect the speed drift? By listening or measuring? And in case you measure, how do you do it?
When you are trying to set the speed, do you do it with the stylus on the record or off the record?
By the way, it's great that the bench power supply was able to keep the speed stable. I understand that such power supplies have 'coarse' and 'fine-tuning' knobs? I assume you've tried the latter, too.
I wonder whether the trimmers on the O/L controller oxidize somehow and thus they may work off-spec. Many pots need some cleaning fluid every now and then... My two cents.
But most important is to understand how you define speed drift. Thanks.