This Is a good 'mate' for the D54 https://www.toutlehautparleur.com/haut-parleur-kartesian-mid120-vhe-8-ohm.html
Just sayin'...
Just sayin'...
I think we have different definitions of what "deep bass" is; for me it's "Threshold of hearing ~ 16Hz" and I don't often get there but I like to able to get 35Hz. When the OP said deep bass in post one that's where I automatically headed when thinking.
If I could move the crowbar in my crossover to 16 Hz I'd be happy but I don't have the skill for that and have to put up with 26Hz
If I could move the crowbar in my crossover to 16 Hz I'd be happy but I don't have the skill for that and have to put up with 26Hz
It would be if the OPs budget allowed, what have you got at less than half that price?
Then a Goldwood subwoofer and we're dome! Err..done! Doomed?
(Really, I would forget the enclosures and eventually use then for subwoofer, yes, double 12" SB 275$ 16 ohm for having Linear output from 50 I think to 300 Hz.)
(Really, I would forget the enclosures and eventually use then for subwoofer, yes, double 12" SB 275$ 16 ohm for having Linear output from 50 I think to 300 Hz.)
IndianaJo and Moondog55 yes. I guess I was thinking the typical 20hz - 20kh. I know that’s theoretical at the top end and hard to get at the low end but what I imagined was as close as possible to that. As should be apparent, I don’t really know what that takes or how realistic it is to achieve but that’s what I was hoping for.
IndianaJo, that looks reasonable with the eminence And I’m sorry to talk in circles but why again not a 15“ driver of theirs then?
moondog55 I’m still interested in what a 3.5 way might look like.
the boxes as They are now are just open inside. I don’t even think I put fill in at the time. Inside of the cabinets is just wires and the pre-made crossovers. I’ll still try to find a minute where I can disassemble one to show the drivers.
IndianaJo, that looks reasonable with the eminence And I’m sorry to talk in circles but why again not a 15“ driver of theirs then?
moondog55 I’m still interested in what a 3.5 way might look like.
the boxes as They are now are just open inside. I don’t even think I put fill in at the time. Inside of the cabinets is just wires and the pre-made crossovers. I’ll still try to find a minute where I can disassemble one to show the drivers.
I still wote for:
Woofer Beyma 12 BR70 94,5 dB (can be used up to 1000 hz)
Midrange Faithal Pro 6FE200 ( if you need new mid´s, in russian but you can se the build quality)
Tweeter SB26adc
Total 436 $ plus shipping from France, ( 338 $ if without mid´s)
Regards John
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Ok, lets do some work. I made Boxsim simulations with these drivers for comparison:
Eminence Beta 12A-2
beyma 12BR70
Visaton W 300
https://www.parts-express.com/Visaton-W300-8-12-Woofer-8-Ohm-292-588
Drivers and BR vent will occupy around 5-6 Liters, so sim is made for 155 Liter volume. Driver position is 21in from bottom, 8,5in from sides. Tuning frequencies are 43, 33, and 29Hz respectively.
Black line is for infinite baffle (half space) condition. Grey line shows effects of baffle-step loss, baffle difraction and floor boundary. Its valid for very big room with speaker placed far away from walls (or open stage).
In average listening rooms response will be in between those two lines, very close to black if you put speakers against rear wall.
Since measurements are taken in different conditions, response is based on T-S specs up to around 2*Fs. Above that are measured results shown in manufacturers datasheets.
Few comments about drivers:
Eminence - highest efficiency and power handling, but bass drops fast below 40Hz. In big room away from walls it needs baffle-step correction for balanced response.
beyma - biggest Xmax and mech. excursion limit. It can move big amount of air. Goes to 30Hz with still high efficiency. Rising response below 200Hz provides baffle-step correction. Alu-cast basket. Midrange response is little uneven. Highest price.
Visaton - Most affordable, best bass extension with gentle rolloff, but lowest efficiency. Also rising response below 200Hz which helps with baffle-step. Xmax and excursion limit in between beyma and Eminence. Some may dislike foam suspension, but I in my Visaton speakers foams were still good when I sold them after 20 yrs of use.
Any of these drivers makes a good choice. My would be beyma, if you can accept extra price.
Also, note that crossing frequency with D54 midrange can be lower if woofer efficiency is lower.
Eminence Beta 12A-2
beyma 12BR70
Visaton W 300
https://www.parts-express.com/Visaton-W300-8-12-Woofer-8-Ohm-292-588
Drivers and BR vent will occupy around 5-6 Liters, so sim is made for 155 Liter volume. Driver position is 21in from bottom, 8,5in from sides. Tuning frequencies are 43, 33, and 29Hz respectively.
Black line is for infinite baffle (half space) condition. Grey line shows effects of baffle-step loss, baffle difraction and floor boundary. Its valid for very big room with speaker placed far away from walls (or open stage).
In average listening rooms response will be in between those two lines, very close to black if you put speakers against rear wall.
Since measurements are taken in different conditions, response is based on T-S specs up to around 2*Fs. Above that are measured results shown in manufacturers datasheets.
Few comments about drivers:
Eminence - highest efficiency and power handling, but bass drops fast below 40Hz. In big room away from walls it needs baffle-step correction for balanced response.
beyma - biggest Xmax and mech. excursion limit. It can move big amount of air. Goes to 30Hz with still high efficiency. Rising response below 200Hz provides baffle-step correction. Alu-cast basket. Midrange response is little uneven. Highest price.
Visaton - Most affordable, best bass extension with gentle rolloff, but lowest efficiency. Also rising response below 200Hz which helps with baffle-step. Xmax and excursion limit in between beyma and Eminence. Some may dislike foam suspension, but I in my Visaton speakers foams were still good when I sold them after 20 yrs of use.
Any of these drivers makes a good choice. My would be beyma, if you can accept extra price.
Also, note that crossing frequency with D54 midrange can be lower if woofer efficiency is lower.
The question of a 15" woofer in a 17" wide box with 3/4" walls, will 1.5"" wide by 3/4" thick plywood withstand the vibration of the woofer (14" diameter for my deltapro-15a)? Will the plywood crack? Will the front panel pull the screws out of the side walls at the narrowest part? Dimensions of commercial speakers I've seen with 15" woofer indicates manufacturers are happier with 20", 22" or 24" front dimension.
Post 88 is engineering the baffle step bass boost problem again. (grey line). Question for OP, are you installing the speakers in the middle of a room or on the front of an open stage? If so, this data & solutions are valuable. If you are installing the speakers close to a hard wall, facing a couch or chair in the middle of the room, the wall itself provides the 3 db bass boost. If you use at home on a wall & sometimes move speakers to a church stage, I would engineer for the home and install a $60 used graphic equalizer between line-level source & amp on a stage to temporarily boost the bass by 3 db on the stage.
Trouble with 20-50 hz from a 3 way, the woofer runs a huge risk of exceeding xmax from 20-50. A box tuned for 20 doesn't control cone movement well, there is no resistance from the air. Exceeding xmax tears up things. Boxes engineered to produce 20-50 hz are called subwoofers, and I don't see you have enough room for a 12" 50-1000 hz woofer, and a 12" subwoofer like lab12 in the same box. You have front panel space for both but you do not have volume to tune the box separately for the 50-1000 woofer and the 20-50 subwoofer.
The organ companies like Allen & Petersen Electromusic sell 20-50 hz speakers all the time, and they are always in a separate box. Petersen sells a 12" subwoofer for $2000, which a friend installed in a 250 seat church, but the subwoofer in St Boniface church. of Louisville has an 18" driver.
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Ok, thank you IndianaJo for the answer on the 15. The boxes are 3/4 inch hdf I believe. Quite heavy. I remember my uncle saying they would withstand almost anything.
i see what you’re saying now about baffle space, but not enough volume in the cabinet.
these will be in my living room near the walls. That’s where I use them.
i see what you’re saying now about baffle space, but not enough volume in the cabinet.
these will be in my living room near the walls. That’s where I use them.
Let's back track for a moment; putting aside deep bass how loud do you normally listen?
Front rows of a symphony orchestra or rock concert levels sometimes?
In a small to medium size room a good 200mm woofer can get reasonable SPL
The Peerless SLS line are a reasonable cost and if used in a 3.5 might be easier to use up around 1k but I am pushing my own preferences for larger sealed boxes and critical damping ; lower than 0.7 anyway but when loud is important nothing beat cone area
Pix attached for fun
Box size is important, an 18 a 15 and a 12 shown The door is 2400 tall for reference
Front rows of a symphony orchestra or rock concert levels sometimes?
In a small to medium size room a good 200mm woofer can get reasonable SPL
The Peerless SLS line are a reasonable cost and if used in a 3.5 might be easier to use up around 1k but I am pushing my own preferences for larger sealed boxes and critical damping ; lower than 0.7 anyway but when loud is important nothing beat cone area
Pix attached for fun
Box size is important, an 18 a 15 and a 12 shown The door is 2400 tall for reference
Attachments
Definitely loud. Not always. But I’m hoping to make those th
e music source for gatherings as well as personal listening. Personal listening…sometimes you just want music on while you’re doing whatever. But when I sit down to listen to music for the sake of music, yess I like to turn them up. Especially with classical where there are greater dynamics between the loud and soft parts.
wow. Those look impressive! I’ll bet that’s fu!
e music source for gatherings as well as personal listening. Personal listening…sometimes you just want music on while you’re doing whatever. But when I sit down to listen to music for the sake of music, yess I like to turn them up. Especially with classical where there are greater dynamics between the loud and soft parts.
wow. Those look impressive! I’ll bet that’s fu!
Dynamic range is important to a lot of us.
So you want at least 100dB at the listening position of peaks or actual ear ringing and deafening levels?
Naturally at those levels the room will need treating and your neighbors will be able to hear it and perhaps complain.
So you want at least 100dB at the listening position of peaks or actual ear ringing and deafening levels?
Naturally at those levels the room will need treating and your neighbors will be able to hear it and perhaps complain.
Going back to an earlier question RevDev.
You asked how a .5 driver worked
It relieves the main bass driver of some of the deeper bass, this means that the main driver moves less and improves midrange or mid-bass quality for lack of a better description.
Also increases the overall power handling of the speaker, so it can play louder without as much distortion.
Or at least this is my limited understanding of the theory
You asked how a .5 driver worked
It relieves the main bass driver of some of the deeper bass, this means that the main driver moves less and improves midrange or mid-bass quality for lack of a better description.
Also increases the overall power handling of the speaker, so it can play louder without as much distortion.
Or at least this is my limited understanding of the theory
Just idly Googling I found this where the D-54 is being used with a Tractrix horn.
http://www.audiodesignguide.com/my/monitor.html
I have no experience with horns but I found it interesting to see what can be done with that particular medium sized dome
http://www.audiodesignguide.com/my/monitor.html
I have no experience with horns but I found it interesting to see what can be done with that particular medium sized dome
Thanks Allen B.
Moondog55 It helps a lot as far as neighbors that I currently am in a very uniquely built old parsonage that was retrofitted to be family friendly. The basement is where the main room ended up being located. It is very difficult for noise to escape much. I guess volume wise I don’t know what is possible with my setup, but I do enjoy some volume!
love that setup. Very creative and from the graph it looked very efficient!
Moondog55 It helps a lot as far as neighbors that I currently am in a very uniquely built old parsonage that was retrofitted to be family friendly. The basement is where the main room ended up being located. It is very difficult for noise to escape much. I guess volume wise I don’t know what is possible with my setup, but I do enjoy some volume!
love that setup. Very creative and from the graph it looked very efficient!
Oh no, please...
The guy might be ok with electronics but when It comes to loudspeaker camp he Just cannot.
The guy might be ok with electronics but when It comes to loudspeaker camp he Just cannot.
No, your amp wont overpower any of drivers in post #88
In multiway speaker system, power is split between drivers by crossover. Most goes to woofer, but some of the power will go to midrange and tweeter.
For good music reproduction at least 10 dB of headroom is necessary for transients. Thats 10 times in terms of power.
In simple words, with 150 W rms amplifier 15 W rms is normaly used. The rest is for transients, short peaks.
In speaker specs, there is program or music power which is more realistic to playing music than rms. If amplifier power isnt higher than speaker program/music power you are safe. Assuming normal usage of course.
In multiway speaker system, power is split between drivers by crossover. Most goes to woofer, but some of the power will go to midrange and tweeter.
For good music reproduction at least 10 dB of headroom is necessary for transients. Thats 10 times in terms of power.
In simple words, with 150 W rms amplifier 15 W rms is normaly used. The rest is for transients, short peaks.
In speaker specs, there is program or music power which is more realistic to playing music than rms. If amplifier power isnt higher than speaker program/music power you are safe. Assuming normal usage of course.