^ ok.
So as there is no comment...
What are you trying to say? I'm not sure that what it tells us is what you think. ( isn't it criptic enough?
).
All system have a limit. Often there is one element in the chain which give up the first. In D&D there is high demand on the 8". I'm not surprised it is the weak link regarding dynamic.
But it behave not in a dramatic way imho: mid 'accept' compression quite better than low end so it must not be too bothersome to listen music on them even if the loudspeaker will leave an imprint.
So as there is no comment...
What are you trying to say? I'm not sure that what it tells us is what you think. ( isn't it criptic enough?
).All system have a limit. Often there is one element in the chain which give up the first. In D&D there is high demand on the 8". I'm not surprised it is the weak link regarding dynamic.
But it behave not in a dramatic way imho: mid 'accept' compression quite better than low end so it must not be too bothersome to listen music on them even if the loudspeaker will leave an imprint.
Camplo,
It doesn't really make sense: we are talking about a small box with a single 8" covering 100hz/1khz range in aperiodic loading.
This driver exhibit a +/- 0,5 db variation over a 26db dynamic range over 76db spl reference level.
In my view those are excellent results given the design constraints. Kudo to Martinj and all at D&D!
I'm not sure our gear define any potential quality grade.
I think know how does and once you have a given level tools can starts to be a limiting factor.
It doesn't really make sense: we are talking about a small box with a single 8" covering 100hz/1khz range in aperiodic loading.
This driver exhibit a +/- 0,5 db variation over a 26db dynamic range over 76db spl reference level.
In my view those are excellent results given the design constraints. Kudo to Martinj and all at D&D!
I'm not sure our gear define any potential quality grade.
I think know how does and once you have a given level tools can starts to be a limiting factor.
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It's low freq limited because boundary coupling is probably impossible to measure with this setup...
Nitpicking about what? I think i never seen any comments about D&D targeting ME as customers but i might be wrong.
1db compression over two octave from 8" at 105db spl. I find this value not bad at all. My 3way 15" bottom out at 105dbspl...
Is it from continous signal or an instant peak test? Probably the latter as i would expect much more worse figure from power compression.
Nitpicking about what? I think i never seen any comments about D&D targeting ME as customers but i might be wrong.
1db compression over two octave from 8" at 105db spl. I find this value not bad at all. My 3way 15" bottom out at 105dbspl...
Is it from continous signal or an instant peak test? Probably the latter as i would expect much more worse figure from power compression.
Instantaneous vs Continuous? I am not knowing...
It wasn't until I came to this board that I began to understand that there are many Mastering engineers using sub par loudspeakers to master with, not sub par as in quality but as in lacking the dynamic ability to recreate the signal faithfully at a decent volume.... This is all completely subjective, but relevant to the thread, since a Mastering Monitor is a representation of the top tier loudspeaker and what I sought to design for myself. Dr. Geddes NS15 is what I would call the Modern Day mastering monitor, A JBL M2 is, as well.... I call the Cynosure a Mastering Monitor that has a classic/vintage approach (The tractrix horn) with a Modern twist (PPSL lower, SOTA Compression Driver, Super Low XO).... The Meyer Blue Horn, I never learned very much about, but on the surface, its super basic, or maybe straight forward? Never the less, the Sound Quality is standard of what I think a mastering monitor should achieve, ie, following all the basic rules of loudspeaker design, that is, Smooth FR, with at least 115db/1m capability, Proper Off axis character in that it is either constant directivity and/or at least a smooth on to off axis transition (like my tractrix horn). In so many words, I think this is the recipe for least colored reproduction.
The ability to reach 115db/1m, I think, has to do with an expectation of uncompressed signal within proper listening volume, as well, THD expectations and possibly an ability to generate a higher direct sound ratio due to directivity and source size. In other words a loudspeaker that can reach 115db/1m within xmax will have the qualities we want at desired monitoring levels.
The Dutch is either highly praised by Mastering engineers or as I've witnessed with some FB groups, some manufacturers develope relationships with these groups or even a forum, and use that platform to push products and block out any contradictory information that one could do differently and achieve the same or better results. Even worse, I've been shunned for displaying my DIY speaker, and treated as if I was a manufacturer trying to push a product. I've been shunned for even less, just debating and supporting my preference of high efficiency monitors even, as in banned from forums, being accused of being a manufacturer based on my "knowledge", that went against the grain... that grain being that Dutch is the best mastering monitor available in the opinion of that forum.
So I have fun bench racing where I can...
Personally I think the Dutch is a pretty awesome product. Also true; those who are using larger, high efficiency monitors say that they would not trade in for a pair of Dutch monitors.
At least here we can voice our preferences without fear of tyranny. I see that much more intelligent/capable people than myself have been treated the same way, so it must be a thing.
I usually can be found arguing that the average joe can beat the curve by a long shot, with DIY.
It wasn't until I came to this board that I began to understand that there are many Mastering engineers using sub par loudspeakers to master with, not sub par as in quality but as in lacking the dynamic ability to recreate the signal faithfully at a decent volume.... This is all completely subjective, but relevant to the thread, since a Mastering Monitor is a representation of the top tier loudspeaker and what I sought to design for myself. Dr. Geddes NS15 is what I would call the Modern Day mastering monitor, A JBL M2 is, as well.... I call the Cynosure a Mastering Monitor that has a classic/vintage approach (The tractrix horn) with a Modern twist (PPSL lower, SOTA Compression Driver, Super Low XO).... The Meyer Blue Horn, I never learned very much about, but on the surface, its super basic, or maybe straight forward? Never the less, the Sound Quality is standard of what I think a mastering monitor should achieve, ie, following all the basic rules of loudspeaker design, that is, Smooth FR, with at least 115db/1m capability, Proper Off axis character in that it is either constant directivity and/or at least a smooth on to off axis transition (like my tractrix horn). In so many words, I think this is the recipe for least colored reproduction.
The ability to reach 115db/1m, I think, has to do with an expectation of uncompressed signal within proper listening volume, as well, THD expectations and possibly an ability to generate a higher direct sound ratio due to directivity and source size. In other words a loudspeaker that can reach 115db/1m within xmax will have the qualities we want at desired monitoring levels.
The Dutch is either highly praised by Mastering engineers or as I've witnessed with some FB groups, some manufacturers develope relationships with these groups or even a forum, and use that platform to push products and block out any contradictory information that one could do differently and achieve the same or better results. Even worse, I've been shunned for displaying my DIY speaker, and treated as if I was a manufacturer trying to push a product. I've been shunned for even less, just debating and supporting my preference of high efficiency monitors even, as in banned from forums, being accused of being a manufacturer based on my "knowledge", that went against the grain... that grain being that Dutch is the best mastering monitor available in the opinion of that forum.
So I have fun bench racing where I can...
Personally I think the Dutch is a pretty awesome product. Also true; those who are using larger, high efficiency monitors say that they would not trade in for a pair of Dutch monitors.
At least here we can voice our preferences without fear of tyranny. I see that much more intelligent/capable people than myself have been treated the same way, so it must be a thing.
I usually can be found arguing that the average joe can beat the curve by a long shot, with DIY.
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Camplo,
What you describe about group of people... it's the reason i keep on staying off social media or other internet forum than here:
People working ( or wannabe) into the industry are not 'better' than the average joe.
Yes there is hype, trends, etc,etc,... the guys i've met which were really advanced in their job as ME were too very curious about anything audio related.
Didn't had this much emotional relationship to gear as they are tools...
You've been shunned because of your knowledge? New school wannabe typical attitude. Or you was a menace about some money making mechanism...
I've been involved into something which looked alike ( manufacturer's audience guru-tism) against my will... stay away from this it cannot bring good things from my experience.
And be proud to have become an 'expert' to the eyes of others... and as all expert you know you only scratched the surface...
What you describe about group of people... it's the reason i keep on staying off social media or other internet forum than here:
People working ( or wannabe) into the industry are not 'better' than the average joe.
Yes there is hype, trends, etc,etc,... the guys i've met which were really advanced in their job as ME were too very curious about anything audio related.
Didn't had this much emotional relationship to gear as they are tools...
You've been shunned because of your knowledge? New school wannabe typical attitude. Or you was a menace about some money making mechanism...
I've been involved into something which looked alike ( manufacturer's audience guru-tism) against my will... stay away from this it cannot bring good things from my experience.
And be proud to have become an 'expert' to the eyes of others... and as all expert you know you only scratched the surface...
D&D speakers are very neutral, but most mastering engineers i know (and even Bob Katz) don't use those. They use Kii Audio Tree BXT (designed by Bruno Putzeys of Hypex/Purifi) it seems. And those use a lot of woofers (14 to be precise) to get that volume undistorted and a lot of processing but do sound very neutral and low distortion and with controlled dispertion untill subbass. I heared both, but not at the same space and time, and got the impression that the D&D is volume limited. It's a very good nearfield, but not fit for a typical mastering studio where the monitors are standing a bit further.
Measurements of those show it why, distortion is rising from 200Hz on and on some volume (96dB/1m) it starts to pass -30dB, where it starts to become an issue on that level. The Kii Audio Tree has the same without the BXT bass module (but slightly less). With the BXT, the distortion stays very low and the general sound is better for mastering. But both are playing on a very high level of neutrality and low distortion controlled dispertion speakers. So we are nitpicking here...
Public measurements that i refer to:
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/dutch_dutch_8c/
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kii_three/
Measurements of those show it why, distortion is rising from 200Hz on and on some volume (96dB/1m) it starts to pass -30dB, where it starts to become an issue on that level. The Kii Audio Tree has the same without the BXT bass module (but slightly less). With the BXT, the distortion stays very low and the general sound is better for mastering. But both are playing on a very high level of neutrality and low distortion controlled dispertion speakers. So we are nitpicking here...
Public measurements that i refer to:
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/dutch_dutch_8c/
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kii_three/
A longer listening distance isn't a requirement of for Mastering is it?
What is going on here??? I am very curious as I am wondering, am I, or should I, be implementing cardioid down to 20 or 30 hertz? I already have additional midbass woofers....Maybe I should focus my cardioid efforts there, is my concern.
Went to the Movies to see 65, last night...2nd row as usual, or at least time, 2nd row, after kicking out 3 teenage girls, from our reserved seats, Checked my bearings vs my U-Mik and REW when I got home....Conclusion... There is no way the Theater is voiced Flat. That is the only way to get such high transients in the bass realm without blowing your head off in the midrange. My Old lady comes out of the room with scowling look....I am sitting in the living about 1 meter from my speaker, with rew mic suspended in front of my face, laptop in..lap... while holding my phone up to my head with spl meter running.... running a scene from Oblivion, trying to recreate the movie experience....
What really pisses me off is how tactile the bass is in the theater. Even at Lcpeak 100db (which remains on par with REW TruePeak). My theory is that without the support of boundaries, all the pressure has to come from the Drivers, some how. increasing its perception....I've recorded peaks as high as 120+ when I went to see Black Adam. I still don't know what there bass system looks like aside from 2 ported QSC 18's in the front middle....
I am in the way of thinking that the voicing a Linear Bass tilt. There is a common one where you are down so many db's by the time you hit 20khz.
Well, we are missing is a chart that shows danger to sound pressure level versus frequency… Low frequencies are less dangerous than higher frequencies of the same Spl. Maybe that's what c weighting is all about?
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no, but life got in the way for a while and i had to focus on other things than diy for a year. And now i'm into another build for someone. But the monitor is still going on, just with a delay... Later more when i get to it.
Still the best I've ever heard in my own system was an experimental rig I made a few years ago. I made a 21" oblate spheroid horn/waveguide with a 66 degree angle out of shapecrete with a huge roundover and drooped it over a 15" to get the c2c distance closer. I crossed over around 650hz and having that extra 350hz is a big deal IMO for sound quality. The other thing I'm convinced of is that the horn material matters. The innertness and mass of the 50lb shapecrete horn gave a solidity to the sound that was very realistic. More so than my Abbey's. Also inside the shapecrete I used metal wire reinforcement. The other thing is the 4" round over, this does something special to the lower midrange. I used a B&C 750tn 2" CD for the highs, it got a bit annoying in the upper treble due to beaming, this was before they came out with their coaxial, wish I had a chance to try them before I turfed the waveguide. I will build these again one day if I get the chance it worked extremely well.
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Not even close due to room acoustics that's generating its tactile bass as speaker bass is rolled off, which combined with its rolled off HF just accentuates it.
Back in the early '70s I too had a 'burning desire' to replicate a cinema, but in my research realized I needed to build one, so not wanting/affording it in my home, worked a deal with my then next door neighbor that had bought my pair of DIY Altec A7-500 and installed them in one side of his drive in basement, so plenty big and between him and his wife quite well off financially, so long story short, it's the room same as the incredible response one gets even in the open at amphitheaters done right.
That said, this is maybe somewhat just ancient history since a lot has changed since circa 2k when I last was active in high end HT/small prosound cinema design and haven't been to any cinemas since.
All my JBL links are either dead or has just the first few pages on the net archive, so for more info best I've got ATM is JBL's 1998 (basic) Cinema Design Manual.
You are not the only person I have came across to say that they have not heard much better than a very large horn. Thank you for sharing. I've used reverse engineering, and psychology to draw my conclusions as I made choices in my system. That conclusion being; Directivity is the most potent aspect involved in increasing Accuracy. A large horn is simply a Device that extends directivity, lower into the passband, amongst other things.
I once was told that the beaming would bother me but I have yet to experience this bothered emotion, but once again, I don't move all over the place while listening lol! Still trying to figure out what those who are bothered by a narrow HF are doing lol! I generally just sit in my chair. Even when I go to the movies I just sit there, in the chair.....
What I do experience is a much nicer FR due to the higher directivity. This(below) is one of the nicer positioning's I've been able to sit in front of. I still have not heard the system positioned in anyway that would be labelled optimal vs the random positions its been in, as I move it around the room to be out of the way, for the rooms functionality. It won't live anywhere until I figure out if I want to add cardioid but looking at your measurements that are pretty good...almost unbelievable on the part of phase vs no EQ involved...as in....I am not sure I believe you lol you didn't fix phase using FIR?.... I can only expect good things once I place them properly corner loaded.
(I think the increments are 2db per line..sorry about that)
I think this is in accordance to what @gedlee explained to me once, about the rooms bass reverb, being the factor.
@EliGuy what are the details of the measuring distance, smoothing, and the placement of the loudspeaker, that is definitely impressive results. for an untreated room
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