I'm based in Joinville, Santa Catarina, very near from Curitiba, aprox 2 hours.@viniciusv where in Brazil are you based? I have friends in São Paulo and Curitiba that can source Powersoft, Linea Research, and 18SW115 drivers if you’d like to get a quote from them.
I also had good results running TH118 from the Studio R X12 amplifiers, even though the spec on paper doesn’t seem to be big enough.
With regards to the the SW100 range for a tapped horn, I’d suggest getting the SW115 if possible. Due to a mix up, my business partner ordered four of the SW100 for some 21” tapped horns we were using for a run of festivals, and they were clearly struggling compared to the other SW115-loaded boxes.
I’m not sure what music you’re playing, but having witnessed first hand what many Brazilians class as ‘acceptable volume’ I think you’ll need all the headroom you can get
I think Studio R stopped producing amps, but every profissional of PA here in Brazil always says well of this amps.
Anyway, i'll be very grateful if you can make this contact with your friends possible.
I'll mostly play electronic music... House, techno, drum n bass, dub and reggae.
Thanks!
Nice, that region is a little more comfortable on the weather for a Brit like myself I had a (very) brief stop in Joinville en route to verify my system design at the nearby Adhana Festival several years ago, looked like a lovely city from what I saw. Do you have quite the same number of VW Beetles roaming about as they do in Curitiba and Floripa?!
I’ve messaged my buddy Lucas from Curitiba to get his current work contact email for you. The company is called Sonic Pro Audio, it’s a small setup but he’s a great guy who’ll take care of you. They’re one of the two Danley dealers out there, so there are plenty of B&C 18SW115 in their own boxes. I think you have similar music tastes too.
Hopefully there’ll be an order coming in soon that you can piggyback on, since I’ve seen first hand what the import duties can be - even for some spare diaphragms 🙃 so bad, that I took 16 whole compression drivers and two Powersoft X4 amplifiers in my luggage on one visit, just to make sure we’d be covered for any mishaps!
Drop me a private message to remind me, if you haven’t heard from me in a few days.
I had a (very) brief stop in Joinville en route to verify my system design at the nearby Adhana Festival several years ago, looked like a lovely city from what I saw. Do you have quite the same number of VW Beetles roaming about as they do in Curitiba and Floripa?!I’ve messaged my buddy Lucas from Curitiba to get his current work contact email for you. The company is called Sonic Pro Audio, it’s a small setup but he’s a great guy who’ll take care of you. They’re one of the two Danley dealers out there, so there are plenty of B&C 18SW115 in their own boxes. I think you have similar music tastes too.
Hopefully there’ll be an order coming in soon that you can piggyback on, since I’ve seen first hand what the import duties can be - even for some spare diaphragms 🙃 so bad, that I took 16 whole compression drivers and two Powersoft X4 amplifiers in my luggage on one visit, just to make sure we’d be covered for any mishaps!
Drop me a private message to remind me, if you haven’t heard from me in a few days.
How small is this world holy ****…Nice, that region is a little more comfortable on the weather for a Brit like myself
I’ve messaged my buddy Lucas from Curitiba to get his current work contact email for you. The company is called Sonic Pro Audio, it’s a small setup but he’s a great guy who’ll take care of you. They’re one of the two Danley dealers out there, so there are plenty of B&C 18SW115 in their own boxes. I think you have similar music tastes too.
Hopefully there’ll be an order coming in soon that you can piggyback on, since I’ve seen first hand what the import duties can be - even for some spare diaphragms 🙃 so bad, that I took 16 whole compression drivers and two Powersoft X4 amplifiers in my luggage on one visit, just to make sure we’d be covered for any mishaps!
Drop me a private message to remind me, if you haven’t heard from me in a few days.
Lucas is my fellow, im very fan of danley boxes and when he started to bring these beauties to my region ive started to talk with him… He have done the sound system management of my marriage, 4 dbh218 2 sh50 and 2 sh46… Felipe is the other Danley guy who works more in the region of Sao Paulo, that probally is your bro too, he also represent the Void Acoustics here, btw unfortunately i never heard this system.
Altough, i didnt have the knowledge that they use the b&c speakers and powersoft. I really appreciate your atention and willingness, i have already contacted Lucas to see when is the next order…
Yep, Joinville is a very german citie, so VW beetles in all your ways is very comum here haha
Adhana Festival still make great parties here, always with awesome soundsystems
Glad to have spoken with you bro, stay in peace!
Well, that’s awesome to hear! It’s been far too long since I got to come and hang out, but yeah I know both of them well and we’ve had a lot of fun at shows together.
I think Lucas is more likely to be able to easily source Linea Research via Danley, which are also excellent amplifiers with great DSP. Felipe definitely has access to Powersoft via the Void Acoustics connection. For speakers, I think they can also both get Faital Pro and Eminence, as those are also used in Danley products
I hope you get sorted, and say hi to Lucas & Helen for me!
I think Lucas is more likely to be able to easily source Linea Research via Danley, which are also excellent amplifiers with great DSP. Felipe definitely has access to Powersoft via the Void Acoustics connection. For speakers, I think they can also both get Faital Pro and Eminence, as those are also used in Danley products
I hope you get sorted, and say hi to Lucas & Helen for me!
Ohhh? How about the 18ds115-4?
Do you think there’s an issue with the round corners in the response ? Hints at it in other designs when the segments are folded on point with a series of rectangle shapes, though not very specific as to what affects where in the overall.
rrepetition of the LP filter in each of the sharp 180 turn it seemed (no concrete proof) with it without angle braces or similar(curved) corners).
I think a keystone in a car would wake up that group
the roar and some Tapped pipe morphs are already represented …this idea is easy to sim as rectangles but I hate to miss the exit detail. Its such a unique part of design approach and looks cool too.
No one has reported on it yet.
What "round corners" in the response are you asking about?
Unfortunately, Hornresp can't simulate the Keystone exit properly, using an average of the exit size does not conform to the measurements very well.
Maybe someday someone will try using AKABAK to simulate it, and find what makes it it work so well, and why the taller version didn't lower the Fb without having to reduce the exit size more than desired..
Art
I know an acabak nerd, But he usually just overcomplicate things trying to show off what excessive details he can exploit.
is there a horn response file I can tease him with? I Fudged one for a B&C 18ds115.. might be loosely based on the keystones guts?
Attachments
Hi all, currently gathering bits and pieces to build a weltersys system, 2x syntripps and a pair of keystones and was wondering if anyone has loaded these with pd1860's at all? Would they still perform as desired and is the driver tough enough for the job? I can potentially source a pair cheaply while I get the system up and running before eventually upgrading to the recommended drivers.
Are you referring to the precision devices PD1860?
They make a PD1850 but wasn't aware of a 1860. I can only see what looks like a copy of it?
The PD1850s are more than 20kgs compared to the 18sw115 at half that.
The genuine precision devices drivers are good but the 18sw115 will go lower and louder and hold together better while doing so. Save your money - do whatever it takes to get the 18sw115. It really is a beast!
Cheers
Martin
Apologies I mistyped it, meant the pd186! I plugged the specs into hornresp and looking at it, it definitely will not hold a candle to what the 18sw115 can pull off. PD186's are really common drivers down my neck of the woods so they pop up cheap and readily available all the time so it seemed like a likely candidate, hence the intruige. Would definitely love to hear the keystones as they should so I guess I'll get saving!
Hey y'all I don't mean to interrupt any recent conversations here. Just wanted to report in. I built my four Keystones about one year ago with the 18SW115 8 ohm drivers and they're still incredible. I had to tighten the bolts on the drivers once, but that's to be expected with heavy use that they came a little loose.
I primarily run cover bands doing mostly pop, punk, and hard rock. Most of our stages are only a few feet high and I do center subs, so I don't often get the chance to stand them up side-by-side, but I'll tell ya it makes a world of difference in the response in some venues. I usually arrange all four either in pairs mouth-to-mouth, or with the center two paired and the outer two mouthed inward. On the rare occasion, I have gotten to do mega-sub where it's two high by two wide with all mouths in the center and it's incredible. But I'll tell ya. If you have the opportunity to stand them up in a venue side-by-side, it can get nuts. The coupling with the ground and having them so close together yield Huge acoustic gain compared to laying them down. Now I just wish I had more 4ft tall stages.
I primarily run cover bands doing mostly pop, punk, and hard rock. Most of our stages are only a few feet high and I do center subs, so I don't often get the chance to stand them up side-by-side, but I'll tell ya it makes a world of difference in the response in some venues. I usually arrange all four either in pairs mouth-to-mouth, or with the center two paired and the outer two mouthed inward. On the rare occasion, I have gotten to do mega-sub where it's two high by two wide with all mouths in the center and it's incredible. But I'll tell ya. If you have the opportunity to stand them up in a venue side-by-side, it can get nuts. The coupling with the ground and having them so close together yield Huge acoustic gain compared to laying them down. Now I just wish I had more 4ft tall stages.
Hello world.
If I may, I would like to ask some questions. I apologize if they where already answered. I read a big chunk of this thread, but could figure everything out. A friend and I bought plywood to built 2 pairs of Keystone. This post mention Keystone for 12, 15 and 18 inches speaker, but I only found plans for 18 inches (post #487).
If I may, I would like to ask some questions. I apologize if they where already answered. I read a big chunk of this thread, but could figure everything out. A friend and I bought plywood to built 2 pairs of Keystone. This post mention Keystone for 12, 15 and 18 inches speaker, but I only found plans for 18 inches (post #487).
- Are 15" Keystone plans available ?
- Are plans in post #487 still the most up to date ones ?
- Looking at assembly pictures makes me wonder, are all cuts 90 degrees ? In other words we can do them all with a saw bench ?
Pierrot,
The 15" and dual 12" Keystone used the same cabinet, adapter plates were placed over the cutout made for the 18" driver for the 15" & dual 12" tests.
The plans in post #487 are current, part "F" is an 89 degree cut on the bottom, part "G" has 85 and 86 degree cuts front and back.
The brace parts "I" through "N" ends have various angles.
All the cuts can be easily made with any adjustable table saw (saw bench?) or circular saw.
Art
I'm over a year into using my pair of Keystone subwoofers and I have to say that I'm still not used to the amount of low end these things put out. I'm getting ready to build another set in the coming weeks. I used the B&C 18TBW100-4ohm speakers but I was considering building them with the more expensive neo versions this time. just thinking that it may be weird having them side by side with the neo's putting out more bottom end.
Try the 18 ds 115 in a ‘straight cut’ version of this layout… murder in the first degree!! And then you can tweak the aperture and see why it’s needed it becomes more and more obvious more and more from when it’s just a little square opening down in the ‘ end’With that bonk(LP filter/gain) off the last parallel/perpendicular wall
Truly a unique learning about all these things
According to simulations, the BC18SW115-4 should be able to put out about 2dB more output than the BC18TBW100-4, but would require more voltage to do so, 76volts, compared to 49v for the BC18TBW100-4.
You may find the 18TBW100 louder at the beginning of the set, and the 18SW115 stronger at the end if the amplifiers swing enough voltage.
Something I wanted to make note of to maybe help the average soundman using the Keystone Subwoofers for the first time...expect WAY MORE ultra low end than you are probably used to.
I have my system EQ'd flat per the DBX driverack 2 auto EQ in best quality mode. I then use my mixer's parametric eq to gently (3db) boost a little 60hz and cut a little 3k-4k. It gives a sound that most people like, just a little fatter and less harsh to the ears than a standard flat EQ.
Driverack setup note: I'm using the JBL SRX722 top cabinets biamped using the suggested crossover settings, and it automatically adjusts each crossover band levels. By default it presumes a JBL SRX 2-18" subwoofer cabinet and promptly sets the level at +4db to match the tops. I tried that, and the auto EQ cut the low end a bunch. so I lowered the low end output level and ran the eq until the eq no longer made huge cuts in low end. I was limited by time, but I ended up setting the low output level to -4db and it still made a small cut in the low end, but not much. realize that we are talking about an 8db difference here! I haven't A/Bd the Keystone against a JBL but I try it against a Faital Pro loaded double 18" cabinet and it made an *** of the 2-18" cabinet. Where the Faital ran out of gas near 50hz the keystone was still very loud at lower frequencies.
Side note: I'm currently using 7ms of delay on the top cabinets to try to phase align at the crossover point. last big show I did with the Keystones was the metal band Saliva, and their soundman set the delay at 6.3ms by ear. He used the Keystones along side of a front loaded pair of 2-18" cabinets. So he just turned up the time delay until he felt the bass was at least 3db louder...real scientific, but that's what we have sometimes. If it sounds good, it is good.
I have yet to get a true and accurate delay time because I don't have access to equipment to make those phase measurements. If anyone has delay time suggestions please share them.
What I find using a Beta 52 on a kick drum is a tone more like old John Bonham with tons of really low end. It was very surprising. to get the tone most of us are used to I actually had to high pass the kick drum channel a bit. But things like bass drops done with keyboards/pads are a thing to experience, just gut moving.
I also highly suggest using high pass on all mixer channels. It cleans the mix up a bunch, and when you actually need that extreme low end, the Keystone will deliver like nothing you have ever heard!
I have my system EQ'd flat per the DBX driverack 2 auto EQ in best quality mode. I then use my mixer's parametric eq to gently (3db) boost a little 60hz and cut a little 3k-4k. It gives a sound that most people like, just a little fatter and less harsh to the ears than a standard flat EQ.
Driverack setup note: I'm using the JBL SRX722 top cabinets biamped using the suggested crossover settings, and it automatically adjusts each crossover band levels. By default it presumes a JBL SRX 2-18" subwoofer cabinet and promptly sets the level at +4db to match the tops. I tried that, and the auto EQ cut the low end a bunch. so I lowered the low end output level and ran the eq until the eq no longer made huge cuts in low end. I was limited by time, but I ended up setting the low output level to -4db and it still made a small cut in the low end, but not much. realize that we are talking about an 8db difference here! I haven't A/Bd the Keystone against a JBL but I try it against a Faital Pro loaded double 18" cabinet and it made an *** of the 2-18" cabinet. Where the Faital ran out of gas near 50hz the keystone was still very loud at lower frequencies.
Side note: I'm currently using 7ms of delay on the top cabinets to try to phase align at the crossover point. last big show I did with the Keystones was the metal band Saliva, and their soundman set the delay at 6.3ms by ear. He used the Keystones along side of a front loaded pair of 2-18" cabinets. So he just turned up the time delay until he felt the bass was at least 3db louder...real scientific, but that's what we have sometimes. If it sounds good, it is good.
I have yet to get a true and accurate delay time because I don't have access to equipment to make those phase measurements. If anyone has delay time suggestions please share them.
What I find using a Beta 52 on a kick drum is a tone more like old John Bonham with tons of really low end. It was very surprising. to get the tone most of us are used to I actually had to high pass the kick drum channel a bit. But things like bass drops done with keyboards/pads are a thing to experience, just gut moving.
I also highly suggest using high pass on all mixer channels. It cleans the mix up a bunch, and when you actually need that extreme low end, the Keystone will deliver like nothing you have ever heard!
The Keystone loaded with a B&C 18SW115-4 has very similar sensitivity to the four ohm dual 18" JBL SRX728, the Keystone loaded with the 18TBW100-4 like you have may be a bit more sensitive.
The drivers in the JBL SRX728 have about 8mm Xmax, either of the B&C drivers have more excursion potential, so can go louder before they "run out of gas".
The DBX "auto EQ" is responding to the room response at the microphone location, and is simply not a good approach to system equalization.
Ported cabinets like the JBL SRX728 or your SRX722 are "phase inversion", the output at Fb (Frequency of box tuning) is around +180 degrees to the upper pass band.
Time/phase alignment is dependent on the acoustic crossover frequency, filters used, cabinet physical alignment, polarity, and phase response at a given frequency.
Suggesting your particular alignment's top delay is like trying to pick a shade of face make-up by looking at a black and white photo
.As far as response of a mic like the Shure Beta 52, or most cardioid mics, the low end response increases drastically with proximity to the source.
A 100mm (4") placement change can result in as much as +15dB at 50Hz for the Beta 52, +15dB in the 150-200Hz range on the SM or Beta 58/57.
All those mics have various "presence" peaks centered from 4kHz to 10kHz, primarily to "cut through the mud" created by the proximity effect.
Art