Yes, the information is there.
1.) Well, you can't argue that one bit - can you?
2.) The expense isn't the issue, a film in large values is an unsuitable choice in audio. Just because something is more expensive does not mean it is better for the application.
3.) Film capacitors can have a much shorter lifespan than electrolytic caps if pulse currents are high. The film slowly vaporizes over time, values drop. You need foil for high current. Now look at the size and cost.
1.) Well, you can't argue that one bit - can you?
2.) The expense isn't the issue, a film in large values is an unsuitable choice in audio. Just because something is more expensive does not mean it is better for the application.
3.) Film capacitors can have a much shorter lifespan than electrolytic caps if pulse currents are high. The film slowly vaporizes over time, values drop. You need foil for high current. Now look at the size and cost.
When you actually read Douglas Self's book you'll see that he completely debunks the myth that higher voltage rating means lower distortion. It's false and he measured it.
The plot in #2099 shows that higher capacitance gives lower distortion. How high is high enough? Capacitance >= (magical constant number extracted from data) * Signal Amplitude.
Capacitor voltage rating is not involved. Which matches the measurement results.
The plot in #2099 shows that higher capacitance gives lower distortion. How high is high enough? Capacitance >= (magical constant number extracted from data) * Signal Amplitude.
Capacitor voltage rating is not involved. Which matches the measurement results.
Isn't choosing a normal value film cap for AC coupling stages an easier way? There are no destructive pules in audio that vaporize the capacitors film 🙂, electrolytic caps have a certain lifetime and are larger. The shown positive features partly depend on brand/type/series and age too so it is not a general truth. What exactly is the benefit? Or is this to justify the recent turn back of certain gurus to use cheap electrolytic caps for coupling? Person A says this, person B says this and that is why it is OK?! So then we will see 1000 µF electrolytic caps to couple stages but those are more expensive than small value film caps.
Maybe for asymmetric power supplies and designs of power amplifiers like the JLH an electrolytic cap is the only way to couple the loudspeaker. For coupling stages one rarely needs larger values than 10 µF. When looking at the tons of equipment to measure all the stuff it seems silly to save a few pennies by choosing electrolytic caps 😀 And the hoarding of extreme amounts of parts also causes that one always uses older electrolytic caps as well. A loose-loose situation.
Maybe for asymmetric power supplies and designs of power amplifiers like the JLH an electrolytic cap is the only way to couple the loudspeaker. For coupling stages one rarely needs larger values than 10 µF. When looking at the tons of equipment to measure all the stuff it seems silly to save a few pennies by choosing electrolytic caps 😀 And the hoarding of extreme amounts of parts also causes that one always uses older electrolytic caps as well. A loose-loose situation.
Last edited:
Whilst I get Paul is selling audio equipment I do genuinely believe he is endeavouring doing the best he can combining listening and measuring. Rightly ? or wrongly ? he recognises that measurements don't provide all the insight to how things sound
I do challenge, but ultimately trust my ears. Many times I go one step forward and two steps back, and do reverse and learn. I do that when I buy new equipment, when I listen to other peoples systems, Ive been doing the same for 40 years, I bought my first HiFI set up at the age of 16 working at Bejam all summer and shared it with my twin Brother (we went halves) and have acceptable hearing for a 55 year old. So still very happy progressing through considered experimentation.
Anatech, do catalogue your equipment, even if its three lines of what it does and what it might be worth. When my father passed he was a carpenter and I made the stupid mistake of selling some lovely tools (I didn't know at the time) that I wish I had now.
I wish I knew as much as others and do respect those who know more, but I am still prepared to get my soldering iron out and try something
I do challenge, but ultimately trust my ears. Many times I go one step forward and two steps back, and do reverse and learn. I do that when I buy new equipment, when I listen to other peoples systems, Ive been doing the same for 40 years, I bought my first HiFI set up at the age of 16 working at Bejam all summer and shared it with my twin Brother (we went halves) and have acceptable hearing for a 55 year old. So still very happy progressing through considered experimentation.
Anatech, do catalogue your equipment, even if its three lines of what it does and what it might be worth. When my father passed he was a carpenter and I made the stupid mistake of selling some lovely tools (I didn't know at the time) that I wish I had now.
I wish I knew as much as others and do respect those who know more, but I am still prepared to get my soldering iron out and try something
Hello,
Of course the gentleman in the last post uses Youtube as a '' marketing tool ''
And of course if there isnt any measurement that will show the gear you are selling is better than everything else available you sometimes need to make up a nice story. Sometimes better sound cannot be explained by better results in the lab. Then the '' designer '' needs to persuade us to buy his stuff with stories that sound close to fairy tales.
It seems that every year the tales are getting more weird. That would be ok if you are allowed to send the goods back the first month.
A few weeks ago i read a nice review on a Dutch audioblog about a device to give you a cleaner power supply. During reading my interest grew and i said to myself if it is reasonably priced i could consider buying one. At the end i saw the price and that this device is available at the webshop owned by the people who write the blog.
Most people/companies that will make money by selling you things are not there to give you a good advice. Audio business is no different than exclusive watches, bags, bicycles you name it. If you let them fool you they will surely do.
Greetings, Eduard
Of course the gentleman in the last post uses Youtube as a '' marketing tool ''
And of course if there isnt any measurement that will show the gear you are selling is better than everything else available you sometimes need to make up a nice story. Sometimes better sound cannot be explained by better results in the lab. Then the '' designer '' needs to persuade us to buy his stuff with stories that sound close to fairy tales.
It seems that every year the tales are getting more weird. That would be ok if you are allowed to send the goods back the first month.
A few weeks ago i read a nice review on a Dutch audioblog about a device to give you a cleaner power supply. During reading my interest grew and i said to myself if it is reasonably priced i could consider buying one. At the end i saw the price and that this device is available at the webshop owned by the people who write the blog.
Most people/companies that will make money by selling you things are not there to give you a good advice. Audio business is no different than exclusive watches, bags, bicycles you name it. If you let them fool you they will surely do.
Greetings, Eduard
I've no doubt Doug is correct about distortion, but that's not the only thing to consider. Every electrolytic manufacturer's DF chart will show decreasing DF with increasing voltage, to a point. I wouldn't use a 100 V part in a 10 V circuit. Less well known, but published by Sprague long ago, is that the lowest voltage electrolytics tend to have shorter life and less stability. I have a lot of test equipment that uses 6 V electrolytics and they tend to fare badly over the years. Even 16 V parts aren't that great. Thus, I recommend staying with 25 V and higher ratings if possible. Bang for the buck, in terms of DF and life, has probably been reached by 35 V.
Mark, I tried this last night. I tried four polarized electrolytic caps in an AC bypass position: 56 uF/400V, 100 uF/50V, 470 uF/50 V, and 1000 uF/50 V. The position is a bypass for AC frequencies to establish the DC conditions on the only gain device in a single-ended preamp. From a bandwidth POV, even the smallest is big enough. I think I can hear the differences in this setup and a few others in my family can too.
The worst sounding cap was the largest value. Second best was the 100 uF/50V, a Nichicon audio grade. Best was the 56 uF/400V. It is only slightly taller than the others and cheaper than some of the others but we are talking < $2 across the band. All of them bought from Mouser and all of them are mass manufactured, non-boutique, products. Lastly, they were all outdone by another industry staple (non-boutique), a 600V, 56 uF polyprop. I've done similar tests over the past month or so and am coming to the same observations every time.
So, my personal experience is different from what the measurements may be telling us. Maybe the measurement was of THD and we all know that is not a good measure because higher order harmonics are much more offensive even in tiny quantities than say 2nd order in higher quantities. Maybe the rise in THD is almost all second order and not as offensive.
Please note that I don't sell anything audio related. Just a regular DIYer having some fun. But I find this very interesting. I went in expecting to hear no difference in sound at all.
The question I have been dealing with is: which measured quantity correlates with my observations? As I look through manufacturer literature and datasheets, one thing I've noticed is the dv/dt capability of polyprops increases with increasing voltage for a given capacitance value. Now, I have not figured out how to translate this capability into measurements that prove why it sounds better--but I am thinking about it. Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree and nothing will come out of it, but I am trying to learn and understand with the limited means and time that I have.
The bottomline is just because we can measure something does not mean it will correlate with what is heard. Pyschoacoustics is complicated and especially the measurement of THD by itself is not sufficient. Observe the popularity of single-ended tube amps with high levels of THD. Also, the VFET amps, which are simply the best amps I have heard, and they can be easily bested by other amps in terms of measurements. Gedlee has also shown that loudspeaker (compression driver) THD, which is mostly 2nd order and 3rd order, is not heard until it is very high and that higher order products are not well-masked by either the fundamental or by lower order products.
What is your opinion on polymer radial capacitor for audio uses, please ?
Would you use them in audio signal path ? Maybe just in digital ic decoupling ? There were the old os-con from Panasonic now there are many Al cases from all brands. where do you use it with their lower esr at iso rating vs wet lythic ?
Would you use them in audio signal path ? Maybe just in digital ic decoupling ? There were the old os-con from Panasonic now there are many Al cases from all brands. where do you use it with their lower esr at iso rating vs wet lythic ?
Thanks! I just used whatever I had on hand for the test. Several folks commented on their favorite electrolytic caps in the past few pages--worth checking out. In the test I mentioned, the 56 uF/400V was a Rubycon. And yes, it was in the bypass position, but in this preamp the gate is grounded, though the way it works is the same as a cathode/source bypass.
Nope, it is the Wima DC Link. Yes, it is big but not as big as a motor cap. It is impractical though in this particular circuit. I had it on hand as a PS filter for a tube preamp. Threw it in there just for comparison.
Conrad is correct about increasing voltage in electrolytic caps. 63V seems to be a sweet spot, but that depends on the manufacturer maybe.
Understand that with the right equipment, you can measure beyond hearing limitations. But interpreting that information takes skill and practice. I can completely understand why people who won't invest in this equipment and learn the details on components and circuits still want to feel their opinion is valid. I get it. Everyone want s to be a player in audio.
I'll say this again. People who measure performance also listen to it. If the measurements did not agree with what I hear, I would have sold everything off decades ago. Generally speaking, people without preconceived ideas agree with the measurements in my long experience. Children and women are the best at this. Measurements locate problems, then confirm they are solved as far as they can be with a certain design. People do hear the positive differences after the work has been performed.
When you are building, modifying or repairing a piece of equipment, the part must fit properly. If it doesn't, then you always compromise performance. Worst case, you damage things. If you design something, using large parts forces you to extend trace or wire length. This is generally bad and should be avoided within reason. Too compact and you block air flow or create hot spots. Also not good.
Everything is a compromise. Unless a part is poor quality, one doesn't sound horrible compared to another. Some audiophile part are in fact poor quality.
Trust you kids / wife. If you do something, don't say a word about it. Just put the stuff out and see what s said, otherwise you are "leading the witness" and will probably get the response you set up. People try to please others, it is natural.
Understand that with the right equipment, you can measure beyond hearing limitations. But interpreting that information takes skill and practice. I can completely understand why people who won't invest in this equipment and learn the details on components and circuits still want to feel their opinion is valid. I get it. Everyone want s to be a player in audio.
I'll say this again. People who measure performance also listen to it. If the measurements did not agree with what I hear, I would have sold everything off decades ago. Generally speaking, people without preconceived ideas agree with the measurements in my long experience. Children and women are the best at this. Measurements locate problems, then confirm they are solved as far as they can be with a certain design. People do hear the positive differences after the work has been performed.
When you are building, modifying or repairing a piece of equipment, the part must fit properly. If it doesn't, then you always compromise performance. Worst case, you damage things. If you design something, using large parts forces you to extend trace or wire length. This is generally bad and should be avoided within reason. Too compact and you block air flow or create hot spots. Also not good.
Everything is a compromise. Unless a part is poor quality, one doesn't sound horrible compared to another. Some audiophile part are in fact poor quality.
Trust you kids / wife. If you do something, don't say a word about it. Just put the stuff out and see what s said, otherwise you are "leading the witness" and will probably get the response you set up. People try to please others, it is natural.
I whole heartedly agree about getting other opinions, especially those who have no clue what has changed, from a capacitor to a power supply to a complete front end. I also agree a lot of females get to the heart of positive changes quite quickly. I have a group of friends that share the same enthusiasms for Music and Hi-Fi and now we are 100+ miles apart we get together at most places at least once a year and get the chance to see how things have changed and comment. we also bring units along for assessment which helps a lot (More DACs, preamps etc and less full range speakers or subwoofers though)
The real value is in people who will point out changes, negative or positive.
I have friends who, rather cruelly, I release equipment to with no changes, or changes that I never even hint at. Keeps them honest. I especially value those who can detect negative changes as sometimes for fun, I will perform a popular mod from the usual sources.
Over the decades, this practice has only strengthened my appreciation for the measurements I (and others) make. The thing is, reality is a cruel teacher some times. No matter how much you want something to be a certain way, in the real world it doesn't always pan out. The only way I trust listening tests is to never assess my own work, I can't be impartial and I'm usually too critical and negative. I can't even be present.
I have friends who, rather cruelly, I release equipment to with no changes, or changes that I never even hint at. Keeps them honest. I especially value those who can detect negative changes as sometimes for fun, I will perform a popular mod from the usual sources.
Over the decades, this practice has only strengthened my appreciation for the measurements I (and others) make. The thing is, reality is a cruel teacher some times. No matter how much you want something to be a certain way, in the real world it doesn't always pan out. The only way I trust listening tests is to never assess my own work, I can't be impartial and I'm usually too critical and negative. I can't even be present.
Super interesting - I think I am going to give these a try. I'll let you know how I get on - thanks!!
I might also look at the Oscon in the driver cathode bypass too, just not sure what 1000uF and 16V options there are that have a good SQ aside from Oscon and silmic
Well, an Oscon is a completely different capacitor type. The high frequency performance is much better, and you have many other brands of Polymer type capacitors to look at. I would be measuring distortion carefully if you change capacitor types.
So far I haven't had time to test them in circuit. My concern is linearity. No evidence one way or the other so far until I actually see performance in circuit. However they have much better frequency performance on paper than electrolytic caps. But also much higher leakage currents.
So far I haven't had time to test them in circuit. My concern is linearity. No evidence one way or the other so far until I actually see performance in circuit. However they have much better frequency performance on paper than electrolytic caps. But also much higher leakage currents.
Read they were less linear than the wet lythic ?
So where will you use them, please? Decoupling, C2'bank position (C1 being smoothing) ?
So where will you use them, please? Decoupling, C2'bank position (C1 being smoothing) ?
