I'm always amazed at how easily the ear can be fooled, mine right up there with the rest. I eventually learned that if something sounds "different", even if it also sounds very good, something is often amiss. I've seen people praise equipment that turned out to have wildly non-flat response because the wrong parts were accidently installed. I've seen people rave about a system where the loudness button was unknowingly stuck on. Test equipment is near impossible to fool, though it can be used by fools. In spite of my best efforts I have those days now and then. If you're not making measurements, you're flying blind. This hobby seems to be specially designed to lead people down endless rabbit holes, driven by the many biases we're subject to, making measurements the only thing you can really trust. Audio memory is about as trustworthy as an email from a Nigerian prince.
As for caps, almost every major company has a huge amount of application data, in addition to the data sheets. Reading it is a good place to start before doing repairs and upgrades.
FWIW, I've never seen a manufacturer claim a measurement difference with their "audio" parts. So what's different?
As for caps, almost every major company has a huge amount of application data, in addition to the data sheets. Reading it is a good place to start before doing repairs and upgrades.
FWIW, I've never seen a manufacturer claim a measurement difference with their "audio" parts. So what's different?
It is marketing, pure and simple. Just understand that.
I have no problem with a hobbyist doing these things for themselves. However *** soon as they begin charging for this and making claims, sorry. A line has been crossed.
I have no problem with a hobbyist doing these things for themselves. However *** soon as they begin charging for this and making claims, sorry. A line has been crossed.
You mean when you say you like Silmic II ? Sorry, it is certainly one of the less neutral lythic I am aware about... at least at decoupling position. I am not specialy using audio rated cap, but this is one is rarly good without compensation elswhere. Not handy at all, simplier to avoid it. This is a simple truth.
Nippon Chemicon's UCC subsidiary alone is described by Mouser as the largest brand in North America. Yet even them have five series under a general label Melodi.
"The high-quality sound design that realized relaxed rich representation"
https://www.chemi-con.co.jp/products/relatedfiles/capacitor/catalog/AJ-N-e.PDF
"The high-quality sound design that realized relaxed rich representation"
https://www.chemi-con.co.jp/products/relatedfiles/capacitor/catalog/AJ-N-e.PDF
Why would ELNA bother with experimenting with silk and talking about the reasons why if this ran the risk of undermining 99% of their product range for what 2% of their margin ?
I think we agreed here. Make your experiments and choose what you prefer, I play with all the brands and Silmic 2 rarely fit.
Maybe just for market share/profit as audio hobbyists desperately want the best cap for audio? In audio things are believed quite quickly even though it sometimes are plain made up properties. When their industrial range would be very good for audio DIY audio hobbyists probably will look elsewhere for audio specific caps. Why not sell them something Elna with silk "for audio" then?
The silk can be a useful addition but it can also be a case of an addition that does not improve matters but also does not make things worse 🙂 "It sounds smooth so the sound also will be."
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It's funny how much people will read into unsubstantiated claims by all manufacturers. They aren't stupid, and audio is a marketing opportunity. Why are you even discussing the motivations of companies?? Isn't it painfully obvious?
We have seen in-depth studies on capacitors of all types published and linked to in various places here. I read them and replicated the experiments, finding them to be accurate to what many of us always knew. But there was a single study that covered all the issues and explained the whys of how this worked. So for everyone here that is hung up on one brand or the idea each has a distinctive sound used as a coupling cap, you guys haven't read a darned thing.
I have the articles somewhere, but all you experts should have found the same ones in your travels.
We have seen in-depth studies on capacitors of all types published and linked to in various places here. I read them and replicated the experiments, finding them to be accurate to what many of us always knew. But there was a single study that covered all the issues and explained the whys of how this worked. So for everyone here that is hung up on one brand or the idea each has a distinctive sound used as a coupling cap, you guys haven't read a darned thing.
I have the articles somewhere, but all you experts should have found the same ones in your travels.
Anyone with ears can test this. Like many I think some caps are better than others (film over electrolytic is a more or less proven example), at least that is what my ears tell me and not the stuff I read. Those are mostly simple industrial series from known brands with BG as an exception. What does happen is that things get exaggerated big time when it is about audio. It is almost exclusively a male issue just like the absurd hoarding of old stuff and parts in extreme amounts. Extreme attention to tiny details and this with many devices does not give peace of mind but just a lot of stuff 🙂
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I am glad I hoarded several hundred pieces 2SC5171 when they were still in active production. And of course its PNP complement too. If you want to know why I would do such a thing, here's the engineering datasheet.
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For me it's not the money, it's the "what am I ever really going to do with all this", combined with, "how is my wife going to deal with all this when I'm gone", problem. I've realized that getting rid of things is harder now because hamfests are smaller, shipping is higher and fewer people even care about electronic parts. Young people don't usually have the space for big vintage test equipment, even if they were interested. I have zero interest in messing with eBay.
Hi Conrad,
I am going through the exact same issues. There is only me now after my wife died a couple years ago. So it will be up to my daughters to clean the place out. I have to "lighten my life". By the same token, I do want to obtain a few pieces of test equipment. Know of an HP 4275A that needs a home? I have a 3585A with a dim (dead) CRT, and one I use. I wanted to install an LCD replacement kit, but they aren't ready yet. These are still useful, great instruments. As you have noted, they weigh a ton! An HP 8902 would be nice as well.
What to do? I still want to work. I have a ton of old audio equipment to get rid of, but much needs fixing first, or discarding. Like you, I really do not want to use Ebay, and my friends don't need anything (I've given tons away so far). My daughters have zero interest in what I do.
-Chris
I am going through the exact same issues. There is only me now after my wife died a couple years ago. So it will be up to my daughters to clean the place out. I have to "lighten my life". By the same token, I do want to obtain a few pieces of test equipment. Know of an HP 4275A that needs a home? I have a 3585A with a dim (dead) CRT, and one I use. I wanted to install an LCD replacement kit, but they aren't ready yet. These are still useful, great instruments. As you have noted, they weigh a ton! An HP 8902 would be nice as well.
What to do? I still want to work. I have a ton of old audio equipment to get rid of, but much needs fixing first, or discarding. Like you, I really do not want to use Ebay, and my friends don't need anything (I've given tons away so far). My daughters have zero interest in what I do.
-Chris
Craigslist is an option, I have had good experiences with US / Canuck Audio Mart too. I am a young person, my equipment is compact. A DAC / ADC audio interface paired with Jan Didden's Autoranger, a signal generator, DMM, and a digital oscilloscope does most everything I need without taking up much space. I hoard vacuum tubes, something of a necessity when you've committed yourself to a dead technology with a finite lifespan.
Some of the equipment I have mystify people not trained. Most don't even know what a spectrum analyser is for, or that a capacitor/ ESR meter is next to useless. Very accurate meters are beyond most ("I don't need one") <--- yes you do. There is a lot of other gear also. My experience is that hack service techs are even less interested in good equipment than a hobbyist.
Your audio interface is a start, but cannot compare with a real audio analyser. A really good THD analyser makes an excellent front end for a sound card (which is what you are using). Most sound cards have around a 10 k input impedance and do not like more than a 5 V input level. Anyway, what you have i a good start. Investigate it's limitations and try to calibrate it properly. For that you need a really good meter, probably a bench meter. the HP 34401A is good for 300 KHz as are the new Keysight models. With one of those you could get accurate levels with your sound card setup. When looking at a meter, look at the basic DC accuracy. Then the AC accuracy for the frequency range you are using, and the voltage range. That is the best case, figure out the error budget and apply that to your figures. Once you do that you will stop quoting a lot of decimal places and understand why you need a good meter.
This takes some study, but is well worth it. It will also explain why so many meters are not suitable for setting bias current where you measure in mV. Setting bias current is a very basic requirement audio techs do several times a day. It will also show you that the least significant digit in many meters means nothing. A sobering study if you have the courage to investigate.
Your audio interface is a start, but cannot compare with a real audio analyser. A really good THD analyser makes an excellent front end for a sound card (which is what you are using). Most sound cards have around a 10 k input impedance and do not like more than a 5 V input level. Anyway, what you have i a good start. Investigate it's limitations and try to calibrate it properly. For that you need a really good meter, probably a bench meter. the HP 34401A is good for 300 KHz as are the new Keysight models. With one of those you could get accurate levels with your sound card setup. When looking at a meter, look at the basic DC accuracy. Then the AC accuracy for the frequency range you are using, and the voltage range. That is the best case, figure out the error budget and apply that to your figures. Once you do that you will stop quoting a lot of decimal places and understand why you need a good meter.
This takes some study, but is well worth it. It will also explain why so many meters are not suitable for setting bias current where you measure in mV. Setting bias current is a very basic requirement audio techs do several times a day. It will also show you that the least significant digit in many meters means nothing. A sobering study if you have the courage to investigate.
Hi weissi,
I get your general point. But understand that military specs demand some features not in line with the best performance. They have to be survivable under all conditions. Consumer equipment does not require this, but your point is that they should still use a quality part. You are absolutely correct in that regard.
Also, many parts are designed for different service, like switching power supplies. Different characteristics would suit normal power supplies better (are you listening fast rectifier users?). A 1N400x series diode is highly engineered, perfect for 60 Hz line supplies and very reliable properly used. Fast switching rectifiers aren't better for that application. The only reason 1N400x diodes are cheap is because they have been around forever, and they sell billions of the darned things. They are not "cheap diodes".
My point is that you have to match the part with the application and a military part is not the best choice many times.
I get your general point. But understand that military specs demand some features not in line with the best performance. They have to be survivable under all conditions. Consumer equipment does not require this, but your point is that they should still use a quality part. You are absolutely correct in that regard.
Also, many parts are designed for different service, like switching power supplies. Different characteristics would suit normal power supplies better (are you listening fast rectifier users?). A 1N400x series diode is highly engineered, perfect for 60 Hz line supplies and very reliable properly used. Fast switching rectifiers aren't better for that application. The only reason 1N400x diodes are cheap is because they have been around forever, and they sell billions of the darned things. They are not "cheap diodes".
My point is that you have to match the part with the application and a military part is not the best choice many times.
I am very very new to this hobby, have very limited knowledge of electronics etc etc. In other words I'm not arguing but asking. Is it possible that people hear something that isn't even measured. I try to read all I can and having fun building a bit an learning. I noticed right a way there's a big rift between the idea of measurement and subjective appreciation. I can't even begin, because of ignorance, to offer any opinion other than to say I'm always suspicious of absolutes. If someone says they're sure ears are wrong because equipment says so, I question that. It seems like you could carry that further to say one piece of music is technically better than another. Impossible I'm sure we'll agree. But what if there is something that isn't even measured that explains what a subjectivist prefers. It's happened in many other sciences. Consider a blood test from 20 years ago vs today as just one example. Add to this that the entire end product is aimed at the ear and enjoyment and it would seem that listening is the final word. It might also be lije trying to chemically measure what tastes best in food.
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