First off ... I don't think classicalfan is looking to reproduce the "exact" experience of an orchestral performance. He's just trying to expand the sound stage from the point it is at right now. That should bring him closer to a more realistic illusion of the event. This is certainly doable and in my opinion requires larger drivers within the loudspeaker in order to accomplish that.
A piano isn't going to sound more realistic being reproduced on a 6" driver vs a 15" driver. The smaller driver is SPL and excursion limited. Maybe there is a point in produced SPL where the reproduction crosses over to being percieved as a live event by the listener. A point where our brain "can" except it as such .. in other words it gets close enough given a good ratio of loudspeaker SPL output to room size.
I personally have a larger set of loudspeakers, 15" with an AMT, and really have no problem "fooling" myself often enough that I have a jazz trio (piano, drum, bass) in my room. Likewise, many small venue performances are pretty close to being real enough for me with this sized system. Larger orchestral pieces are reproduced, to scale, as well. My brain tells me that I don't have 100 guys in the room with me but the impact of the performance is enough to satisfy the illusion. That's what this whole 2 channel stereo thing is about after all. Everything, but the real thing, has warts.
The issue is in regards to loudspeakers and boundary interference; specifically, floor bounce. Floor bounce absolutely is a real thing and it’s effects repeatedly show up in FR measurements of loudspeakers in domestic spaces taken from the main listening position; my objection is not that people are waving it away (that is simply a matter of preference) but to the stated justification for waving it away (i.e. that we are accustomed to its effects during live acoustic events). It’s relevance to the OP’s subjective listening experience is speculative. Without measurements, how could it be otherwise? Regardless, it’s entirely the prerogative of the DIYer to take steps or not take steps to eliminate or minimize it.
Mix of both. Large orchestral and mid sized clubs both amplified and acoustic.
Not sure where you're headed with this but rest assured, I do know enough about what actual instruments sound like in real life.
To me really good loudspeakers can reproduce an event to a realistic degree. Question is how big is the reproduction? Does the illusion put me a city block away or right there? In this sense, small loudspeakers have their limits.
Not sure where you're headed with this but rest assured, I do know enough about what actual instruments sound like in real life.
To me really good loudspeakers can reproduce an event to a realistic degree. Question is how big is the reproduction? Does the illusion put me a city block away or right there? In this sense, small loudspeakers have their limits.
The way I'm going is that if you know what a live performance sounds like, then you won't make the claim that a stereo system can sound like it.
Look, we had a nice upright piano at home, my son played it, it energized the room in a way the stereo couldn't. Now, slow down... here... let me tell you.. at the time I had two pairs of Acoustic Energy AE1s. stacked on top of each other, with a matched pair of Audio Research D70 MkIIs and a pair of Entec woofers. I used the crossover that comes with the Entecs so the AE1s were plenty powered. That system was very powerful. It simply did NOT sound as loud or powerful as the piano. Nor the drum kit in my son's garage band,
Sure, it might do fine with an acoustic bass and a bluegrass band... if properly recorded.
If I played something like a rock band, well that was different. Say, The Pretenders, the system would play very loud, yep, the guitars and bass sounded fine, the tom toms and snare had impact, but the cymbals (well, that was the recording) lacked air and the kick drum just didn't have the impact of the garage band. Mind you, that set up played very loud... really loud... yet, it didn't have the impact.
The point that I'm trying to make is than an audio system just doesn't sound like the real thing. It's a quixotic endeavor.
Then, if you've been IN the performance, well, forget about it, huh? The recordings are made to present the performance from the point of view of the audience, not the players.
I've done my share of recording.. with small sized classical and acoustic music you can get away with a good recording that presents a nice facsimile of the performance, but it will NOT fool you to think they are right there. I mean, I have an LP of Zappa at the Roxy. You can hear the band really well, they are presented solid in front of you... but, it's just not the same. It lacks the IMPACT of the real performance.
I'm beginning to wonder if the OP's problem is his choice of recordings.
Besides... another thing about the OP.. he has a small room. Other than trying a pair of small Maggies, with their unique characteristics (dipoles and fast bass but not deep) I can't think of a "large" dynamic driver that won't overdrive the room into resonances.
As I said, to me it comes down to scale. Something you can't pull out of your back side. Loud but less impactful loudspeakers mean they lack scale. They're SPL and excursion limited .. just like the Maggies you've been suggesting, if we're being honest 😉 As for room resonances, a couple small subs and some thoughtful EQ goes a long way. ... but that's another kettle-o-fish.
This in my experience would be a mistake and will lead you in the wrong direction. Because a mass market product has a popular name does not mean that it can reproduce music at a high level. Nor do any brand of AV Receivers excel at stereo audio reproduction. They are designed to decode and mix compressed multi channel audio signals which are synthetic sound tracks created in a sound and mixing room. They are not natural recordings. Some of the more expensive units allow you to use the AV receiver as a preamp only bypassing all of the internal digital processing. But sadly, this is becoming more rare as newer units are designed to be easier to set up for novice consumers and give you less choice in how to use the equipment.
Classical fan, are you comfortable in telling us the model of your Denon receiver. I'm curious to research it and find out what kind of options it has for functioning as a two channel audio preamp and amp. It could be that there is a different way of setting it up that might improve the sound from your CD player.
Also, does your CD player have a digital output and if so. Does it have both toslink and coax digital outputs.
In reality, Maggies just sound so different.
In my living room right now I've been listening to the rebuilt Sansui G-7500. I had it with the ADS L810s. Then, I remembered that it has A and B speaker connections ( I forgot about the convenience of those 70s receivers), so I hooked up the Maggies to it.
Other than you can see those power meters swing (they barely move with the ADS speakers), it sounds like a Maggie. You just don't miss the bass.
And, I turned on the loudness control.. ( OMG, remember those?)... it actually makes the Maggies sound a wee bit better at low levels.
OMG, I'm going to get booted from the High End Audio Club.
CD player.... CD PLAYER?
A polycarbonate spinning disk.... Red Book with sharp filters...
Well, that explains it. Why didn't the OP say so to begin with. There's the problem.
What the OP needs is a good wax cylinder setup.
It's a basic level AVR and does not allow direct access to the power amp section. I'm using the coax output from the CD player now. Not much else that can be done here.
Last edited:
I've heard Maggies in stores and really liked them. But those were in very large showrooms. Not sure about them in my rather small listening room. Also, would require buying a new amplifier with enough power to drive them.
They are on the list of possibilities, but pretty low down on the list at the moment. The mini Maggie is interesting, but with a new amp the cost would be about $3,000. Quite a bit more than I'm planning to spend right now.
Yeah, I know. But they are convenient, particularly late at night when I just don't feel like messing with CDs. There is a dozen or so Internet classical and opera sites that I bounce back and forth through until I find something I like. And some of them actually sound very good, at least to me.
Actually, I had a small Denon receiver with a SPDIF input, both coaxial and optical. The funny thing was that if I used analog line instead, the sound was objectively better. Maybe this would be worth trying out? Could have been just a faulty receiver I had though. I just remembered this thread when I did a test listen of my new dual 3FE22 loudspeakers (with a sub). The soundstage is really remarkable with such small full range speakers.
FWIW I just changed my desktop rig from a Topping Class D to a small Nelson Pass Class A amp. The difference in perceived space and imaging is nothing less than amazing. I am blown away by the change. It is so much better now. I used to think amplifiers did not make much of a difference and that sound was all in the speakers. Boy was I wrong. I have been converted. BTW, I'm using home built sealed full range speakers made with Markaudio CHR-70 drivers.