"The kit builder has a choice with regard to the bass response of the speaker. Originally designed as a
small sealed system, it has a -3dB point of 70Hz with a Qtc of .75. This response offers excellent
integration with most subwoofers. However, it is also available with a rear vented enclosure of the same
size. The vented speaker has a small rise in response of about 1db in the 100Hz range and has a -3dB
point of 59Hz with a -6dB point of 48Hz."
http://meniscus.lightningbasehosted.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Piccolo-Write-up.pdf
by having the piccolo sealed, you actually would lose a lot of ambiance in the recording, most big classical recording usually have excellent ambiance and depth as the instruments are separated in quite a good distance in a concert hall
Well, that's a very good point. I do plan to add the ports. Just need to find some shop time to do it. Thanks.
The streaming digital music on the internet is so compressed that the sound stage if there was any in the recording is not recoverable. If you are a serious music lover and listener you should use your CD player or computer set up the best you can afford to listen to music. The streaming is good for background listening and while working in a noisy environment.
Everything's there to change everything about the the sound. 1st, I hope the sound of these "digitizers" is liked, because it's there, in the resultant speaker signal. I hope the sound of the DACs is liked also, for the same reason. I and I believe others have sensed that this "double whammy" on an initial analog audio input signal / information (the ADC, then processing, then DAC) does have an perceptible effect.
Solution in a such a case would be first to get rid of the ADC from the signal chain. Then get a reputable, good sounding DAC to drive amplifiers directly. Another way is to get the type of amplifier that is a DAC, in and of itself, that way the audio stays digital for as long as possible; certainly without these back 'n forth conversions. Understandably, that may be too far for some, especially tube amp aficionados.
You might try experimenting with a low backed chair. The chair is blocking much of the reflected sound from the room that reaches your ears. Although as close to the back wall as you are it might not matter much. Is there a listening position a little closer to the speakers you can use.
if the room is small, and the listening seat distance is short to the back wall, its advisable to be absorbed completely, as longer reflections will ruin the imaging presentation.
Yeah, that's the way I see it as well. I think the high back chair blocking the reflections from the back wall is a good thing. Anyhow, it's a very comfortable chair and the only one I have right now for this purpose. No plans to change it.
Yes, I hope to make a couple of acoustic diffusers some day. I have this idea to make a narrow more vertical center channel speaker that functions as a TV stand and then apply some kind of acoustic treatment to the sides. Something kind of like this. The lower walls near the right hand speaker could sure use something. And maybe a rug on the floor. But I hate rugs.
Attachments
...even though in electronics things are designed specifically not to...
To what extent relative to the resultant acoustic signal from the speakers and room?
Fact or opinion here? If fact, please cite references.
There will always be an ADC in the signal chain until we find a way to emit digital sound waves, which we won't.
Are you aware that many of the same chip sets that are used in "reputable" DACs are the same as that used in AVRs? What is "reputable"?
It's been done, and is not easy to do. One huge problem is what to do about reconstruction filtering at high power. If you just pass that job to the speakers, you get some rather unpleasant results because of the non-linearity in them. Filters above all need to be linear.
Actually, this entire post has surpassed conventional wisdom, reality and science. I'll be you'll proclaim these opinions with conviction to people with 1000s of R&D hours into digital audio systems and summarily dismiss their findings.
A lot has been said and discussed on this thread by members that are far more experienced than I am. This thread has turned sour at times, but also some really interesting topics were raised and discussed in depth. But from my (limited) experience I would like to suggest some practical pointers to try and help classicalfan. Time for some diy maybe.
I have understanding that you cannot, or don’t want to implement the suggested room treatments. I have the same situation – a small lounge area which is far from acoustically perfect and SWMBO will never allow me to install diffusers or other stuff. None of my hifi friends have treated listening rooms either. But I have heard systems in those non-perfect lounges with amazing soundstages and imaging.
It all starts with the recording – some recordings can create a great soundstage and accurate imaging; others can sound terribly flat and 2 dimensional. Maybe members can share some actual recordings for you to test this. One of my favourite recordings to demonstrate a big soundstage is the first part of Andreas Vollenweider’s Carvena Magica track. I believe it is a binaural recording. I do not listen to much classical music, but I have heard many classical recordings which are utterly flat with no depth at all and does not reach beyond my 2 speakers.
If we accept that your Denon is not the main bottleneck, then you can start with replacing your speakers and it does not have to cost lots of $. The best speakers I have heard in creating a huge soundstage and with great imaging in a normal lounge area are the mini Karlsonators (0.53X) with dual Faital Pro 3FE35 (16 Ohm) drivers. Yes, they are made of foam core and you can construct them on your dining room table, but they beat commercial speakers costing hundreds of $. Here is the link: Mini Karlsonator (0.53X) with Dual TC9FDs | diyAudio
I really like small/narrow baffle speakers and would certainly recommend looking at the following options also. They are both exceptional designs, capable of creating a big soundstage in a small room, easy and cheap to diy:
Tabaqs: (1) TABAQ TL for Tang Band | diyAudio
Frugal Horn Lites: (1) Frugel-Horn Lite for 3" drivers | diyAudio
Yes, I love Full Range speakers and I know what single point source speakers are capable of, therefore my opinions and recommendations are completely and utterly biased. Hope it helps.
I have understanding that you cannot, or don’t want to implement the suggested room treatments. I have the same situation – a small lounge area which is far from acoustically perfect and SWMBO will never allow me to install diffusers or other stuff. None of my hifi friends have treated listening rooms either. But I have heard systems in those non-perfect lounges with amazing soundstages and imaging.
It all starts with the recording – some recordings can create a great soundstage and accurate imaging; others can sound terribly flat and 2 dimensional. Maybe members can share some actual recordings for you to test this. One of my favourite recordings to demonstrate a big soundstage is the first part of Andreas Vollenweider’s Carvena Magica track. I believe it is a binaural recording. I do not listen to much classical music, but I have heard many classical recordings which are utterly flat with no depth at all and does not reach beyond my 2 speakers.
If we accept that your Denon is not the main bottleneck, then you can start with replacing your speakers and it does not have to cost lots of $. The best speakers I have heard in creating a huge soundstage and with great imaging in a normal lounge area are the mini Karlsonators (0.53X) with dual Faital Pro 3FE35 (16 Ohm) drivers. Yes, they are made of foam core and you can construct them on your dining room table, but they beat commercial speakers costing hundreds of $. Here is the link: Mini Karlsonator (0.53X) with Dual TC9FDs | diyAudio
I really like small/narrow baffle speakers and would certainly recommend looking at the following options also. They are both exceptional designs, capable of creating a big soundstage in a small room, easy and cheap to diy:
Tabaqs: (1) TABAQ TL for Tang Band | diyAudio
Frugal Horn Lites: (1) Frugel-Horn Lite for 3" drivers | diyAudio
Yes, I love Full Range speakers and I know what single point source speakers are capable of, therefore my opinions and recommendations are completely and utterly biased. Hope it helps.
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Classicalfan, are you sure that your woofer - tweeter time alignment (polarity) is correct ? I once had something like that which made me look like a fool for months together.
I looked at those suggestions, and thanks, but they are not really the way I want to go. Although I'm sure they can produce a large sound stage as you indicate, I'm not willing to give up the outstanding high end from my current speakers just to get it.
The SBA tweeter in the Piccolos I have previously described as sounding "luscious". I know that's not a very good technical term or musical adjective to use, but I can't think of a better word. Whatever I do that tweeter or something better needs to stay.
The SBA tweeter in the Piccolos I have previously described as sounding "luscious". I know that's not a very good technical term or musical adjective to use, but I can't think of a better word. Whatever I do that tweeter or something better needs to stay.
Electronic design has all kinds of influence on how some recording sounds. Just look at the diversity here, in an attempt to minimize any adverse effects on the sound!
The extent is how the apparent "sound-stage" is perceived - among other aspects.
Opinion based on perception, backed up by noting others perceiving likewise. I didnt save the particular thread(s) to reference.
The ADC should be the one originally used to make the digital recording. There's no need for a second ADC sound-chopper, just to enable "DSP". So OP said he has a "good" CD player and we'll assume the Denon is a "good" consumer audio product also. The signal chain I'm suspecting is causing the issue of "sound stage not as good as I'd like" is that of multiple signal format converstions.
CD->analog->digital->analog; by the time the music makes it from the recording media to speaker. Stream I assume even worse; CD->Rip->Storage->Encode->Network Stream->analog->digital->analog. Going through all that is going to do something to the sound - and it's unlikely to be a positive. That "multiple re-conversions" is my main point and why I would favor equipment change, versus speaker / room changes.
Reputable is something other people have listened to and say is pretty good. I bought my Lii audio F15s based on that - and got lucky. Mileage may vary, but what else can you do? I look at the customer feedback ratings on Amazon and figure if there's an exponential decay shaped curve from 5 stars to 1 - "chances are". Better than if there's an exponential decay shape curve from 1 to 5 - where most of the population providing a review think it stinks!
I wonder why?
If it's messed up upstream, does it matter? Come on.
Nothing wrong with opinions is there?
Dedicated unit at the studio costing a fortune is different than the one in some mid fi AVR thing, I'm thinking.
Power supply quality, decoupling, all kinds of electronic **** goes on in there.
Don't be so delicate. Conventional wisdom, reality and science is almost completely dedicated to making these things cheaper than the next bunch of conventional wisdom scientists so they perform to a level most people can't tell the difference in. A pretty big target, as we've seen.
Fact is, by all accounts other than the OP's the speakers image well, so that leaves the source, the amp, and the room.
Until there are other independent opinions of his sources and his amp, there's no way for anyone to say they're not screwing it up.
I was very careful in the wiring and am sure the polarity is fine.
And there are no problems with the speakers. It not as though they sound bad. They don't. In fact, they sound great. Could use a little more bass, but that's a different matter.
The main point here is to increase the size of the sound stage. I actually have a very good sound stage right now between the speakers. Would just like to have it expand beyond them for listening to full orchestras.
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+1 to the idea of posting favorite big-soundstag recordings.
Carvena Magica was not released binaural, it's a multitrack recording/mixdown to stereo. FIY, binaural recordings do not produce large soundstages on speakers, rather the opposite. They sound kind of terrible. That's why many binaural recordings are also released in normal stereo. To get binaural to enven parly work on speakers takes extensive post-processing and a treated room. There are many issues with binaural techniques, but they're outside of the thread topic.
Might be time to bring up the interconnects. 
Is it just the wires that came in the box with the reciever? Some of those $1.59 shipped jobs off evay?
Is it just the wires that came in the box with the reciever? Some of those $1.59 shipped jobs off evay?If you have a source that makes a big stage, and you aren't hearing one, there is an error. qed.
You should. The facts conflict with your "understanding".
Yep. If you're trying to solve a problem, you need to know what the cause is. Otherwise you're beating the deceased equine.
Nothing wrong with opinions unless strongly stated as "fact", which results in confusion and the propagation of missinformation.
You're thinking again is a bit skewed by the "high end" mindset. On a microscopic level, many of the same internal parts are common across all audio segments. Are you into component-level electronics, or just the hear-say of that?
Of course, but it's not some sort of black art. The results of power supply decoupling are easy to verify. And "power supply quality" is basically a nonsense catch-all term. Power supply design is complex, true, but not one of those mystic out of hand disciplines. Again, quite easy to verify it's working right with any decent lab oscilloscope.
Of course, cheaper and more features is the target, but technology has assisted that with larger scale integration. In 1980 a Dolby ProLogic decoder didn't exist, and the current technology then made it extremely difficult to produce a surround decoder anything nearly as accurate as analog consumer ProLogic of just a few years later. What we had was the Dolby Cat. 150 theater surround decoder using repurposed Tate Audio chips made for quad decoding. Good, but not great. To do what is done now with digital technology would have resulted in the most expensive decoder every made. Now, that function is done excellently in DSP code running on DSPs already in place for other reasons. It's almost like the perfect LtRt decoder for free! That doesn't mean its "cheap" in a bad way, the performance is way above the pro level of 1980, it means its "great" and inexpensive. The same applies for every stage of an AVR, input switching, volume control, preamps and power amps. You literally could not construct today's AVR even 20 years ago without it being priced in the extreme high-end range. Everything is way less expensive per function. That doesn't make it bad.
Why? The fact is, by all accounts, the OP refuses to deal with the acoustics. He's working on the speakers. The amp and source have nothing to do with his problem, but false information has directed him to chase those too. The room swamps all other signal modifiers. If you've never made acoustic time-based measurements on a room with a speaker, the responded by placing treatment, and listening to the difference, you might never appreciate how huge a factor this is.
No source and amp can influence soundstage without going outside of the main purpose of those devices: to replicate the input, adding only gain. Nothing is perfect, but the modifications of the worst source and amp are literally minuscule compaired to the speaker and room (which are not sparable, they are one acoustic unit).
Anybody is free to change whatever they wish and convince themselves its worlds better or worse. Some of use want to know not only IF there was a change but WHY the change is better/worse. That kind of research disagrees with a lot of audiophile high-end concepts. But if we stick with verifiable and reapeatable exeriences, the things that make the difference come out, well, different.
I'm aware that reality isn't desired or welcome.