Nor do I, because of the closed in feeling. But I finally conquered that, by putting mics in my ears recording sweeps of speakers in a large space. I use the derived impulse responses to drive the headphones and it works! Sounds like speakers in a room. But that's a subject for another thread.
See my post number 94. We aren't talking amazing 3D holographic here, just the basic stereo effect.
For a long time there have been - in the analog environment - artifacts to achieve the soundstage with headphones, eliminating that feeling of being "split between the two hemispheres".
They took the signals from the R and L channels, mixed them together and achieved the effect of moving the stage "forward".
But at a friend's house I was able to hear a holographic sound experience that was overwhelming.
In the digital environment, - PC program via - I could hear the sound spin from the front, all the way around behind our head and back to square one. 360° You choose where it stops.
They took the signals from the R and L channels, mixed them together and achieved the effect of moving the stage "forward".
But at a friend's house I was able to hear a holographic sound experience that was overwhelming.
In the digital environment, - PC program via - I could hear the sound spin from the front, all the way around behind our head and back to square one. 360° You choose where it stops.
https://us.creative.com/sxfitech/technology/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holophonics
And when my son sat me down in front of his computer, put the "virtual reality" headset on me and invited me to "land on the moon" accompanying the astronauts in the capsule, I think I lost all sense of time and space.
Beware, these technologies are wreaking havoc on many young people, at the level of addictions.
They took the signals from the R and L channels, mixed them together and achieved the effect of moving the stage "forward".
But at a friend's house I was able to hear a holographic sound experience that was overwhelming.
In the digital environment, - PC program via - I could hear the sound spin from the front, all the way around behind our head and back to square one. 360° You choose where it stops.
For a long time there have been - in the analog environment - artifacts to achieve the soundstage with headphones, eliminating that feeling of being "split between the two hemispheres".
They took the signals from the R and L channels, mixed them together and achieved the effect of moving the stage "forward".
But at a friend's house I was able to hear a holographic sound experience that was overwhelming.
In the digital environment, - PC program via - I could hear the sound spin from the front, all the way around behind our head and back to square one. 360° You choose where it stops.
https://us.creative.com/sxfitech/technology/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holophonics
And when my son sat me down in front of his computer, put the "virtual reality" headset on me and invited me to "land on the moon" accompanying the astronauts in the capsule, I think I lost all sense of time and space.
Beware, these technologies are wreaking havoc on many young people, at the level of addictions.
Well I would be addicted, for sure. But I've tried every headphone software or plugin I could find, and none worked for me.
Perhaps in that sense I'm a little like mtidge. After years of trying it finally works (for me) and it makes headphones much more enjoyable.
Perhaps in that sense I'm a little like mtidge. After years of trying it finally works (for me) and it makes headphones much more enjoyable.
Yes. I actually used an advanced technique called 'finding out'. If you read up on aphantasia it is very clear what the issue is, no speculation needed.
The only assumption I made is that the OP is not intentionally lying, which I believe is reasonable.
And if you read that posted story you understand completely.
Jan
Of course, but I was talking about the result, as we usually perceive a mono signal, reproduced by a stereo two channel system (both loudspeakers reproducing the same signal) as a mid-center virtual sound source (or phantom source, the more common term in germany).
If I am not completely mistaken, then mtidge belongs to the quite small subgroup of humans who do not perceive the mid-center virtual sound source, but two distinct sound sources located at the loudspeaker positions instead.
Therefore even the most simple way of using a pan-pot to place instruments/singers on different position between these two frontal loudspeakers will not work for him as intended.
So what do those with this problem hear when a sound is panning from one side to the other, for example on Abby Road in the final track "Her Majesty"? Or walking across the room in PF?
Suppose someone claims they can't hear a center image. What if you have them close their eyes and pan the sound either hard left, center, or hard right (three choices). Then ask the person to point in space between the speakers where they estimate the pan pot position corresponds to. Probably they can do it, right? What if you make it a little harder an increase the number of pan pot positions to 4 (equally spaced), then maybe 5. Train the person to increasingly be able to estimate position according to relative volume levels coming from the two speakers.
Now, from the perspective of an external observer, does the test subject exhibit ability to locate a point in space corresponding to the pan pot position?
If so, what if the test subject is instructed to close their eyes and imagine there is an actual musician playing in instrument at that location in space. Do it for 10 minutes a day for two weeks. Is it starting to get easier? Etc.
Now, from the perspective of an external observer, does the test subject exhibit ability to locate a point in space corresponding to the pan pot position?
If so, what if the test subject is instructed to close their eyes and imagine there is an actual musician playing in instrument at that location in space. Do it for 10 minutes a day for two weeks. Is it starting to get easier? Etc.
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Wow. I'm all ears. New thread please.
To give the OP a fair test a superb imaging system that does the 3D trick is indicated for lateral and depth location. They are around in most cities with an audio club. Everyone deserves to hear this once in their life. If he fails that then there is little room for doubt. Ideally the test would be done with a blindfold on before entering the room to disable the visuospatial dominance in the sensory integration area of the secondary sensory cortex. This area is ripe for a neuropsychology PhD project complete with fMRI imaging to aid the diagnosis of high functioning Autistic Spectrum Disorder.
Well there's no arguing with that premise. Complete logic fail.
The people suffering from this problem are able to locate the sound hard-left and hard-right, but instead of the center they just perceive two distinct (seperated) sound sources playing simultaneously at the positions of the left and right loudspeaker.
But if you place a true sound source at left, right and center positions, they don't experience any problems to point to it correctly.
Understood. But can they point to the center with their finger if the volume level is equal on both speakers? I'm looking for correlation first. Perhaps training for improved correlation. Once sufficient correlation (ability to point by estimating individual speaker volume levels), then follow with a deeper stage of training to play something like a children's game of imagination. Estimate position as described above, then the game is to tell your System1 to believe there is really something at that position. Pretend it is so. Try to let yourself believe the game is for real; give yourself permission to believe it. Do it repeatedly and give it some time. Retraining System1 may have to be done by rote.
Another thing I would like to point out about medical conditions, something that was pointed out in the forum not too long ago by a member who is an MD: No two humans are the same, none have the exact same anatomy. No human is exactly like what is says in the textbooks.
Conditions like the one being discussed here tend to occur across a spectrum. Maybe someone can have the condition on a scale of 1 to 10. That is despite what it says in the wiki. The threshold for diagnosis may be changed next year. A doctor may judge whether someone should be given a diagnosis even if they are a bit on the wrong side of the threshold line. For them it is partially a judgement call. Maybe sort of like how AI estimate linear separability on a statistical basis, where some points are on the wrong side of the dividing line (or on the wrong side of the hyperplane, as the case may be). The threshold dividing line is only an estimate that may be a bit off for a particular individual.
We don't have a expert diagnosis of the OP at this point, this despite Jan's well intentioned efforts. We don't know how resistant he might be to thoughtful therapy. Have to try to find out, experiment, as it were, if we want to know more. Or, not.
Conditions like the one being discussed here tend to occur across a spectrum. Maybe someone can have the condition on a scale of 1 to 10. That is despite what it says in the wiki. The threshold for diagnosis may be changed next year. A doctor may judge whether someone should be given a diagnosis even if they are a bit on the wrong side of the threshold line. For them it is partially a judgement call. Maybe sort of like how AI estimate linear separability on a statistical basis, where some points are on the wrong side of the dividing line (or on the wrong side of the hyperplane, as the case may be). The threshold dividing line is only an estimate that may be a bit off for a particular individual.
We don't have a expert diagnosis of the OP at this point, this despite Jan's well intentioned efforts. We don't know how resistant he might be to thoughtful therapy. Have to try to find out, experiment, as it were, if we want to know more. Or, not.
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I will, I will. The process is still messy and labor intensive, tho. I was asked to write an article in audioXpress, but it hasn't happened.
I think that post #33 may be on the right track. The Hazz Effect seems to be what stereo imaging is based on, using a delayed sound from the opposite speaker will fool the brain into placing the source between the speakers. This is clearly different from locating sound sources in nature and perhaps my brain is not believing the trick, or more likely the system that the trick relies on simply does not exist in my brain.
@kazap,
It seems to me that jan.didden clearly understands what is going on with me. And I don't know why you are equating me not immediately rushing out to find the holy grail of imaging system with a repeated lack of problem solving. I have reread your posts, I clearly can tell you are trying to solve this from an audio/technical approach. I did notice in your last post that you state that it might be a neurological or equipment problem.
Carry on, this is an interesting journey.
@kazap,
It seems to me that jan.didden clearly understands what is going on with me. And I don't know why you are equating me not immediately rushing out to find the holy grail of imaging system with a repeated lack of problem solving. I have reread your posts, I clearly can tell you are trying to solve this from an audio/technical approach. I did notice in your last post that you state that it might be a neurological or equipment problem.
Carry on, this is an interesting journey.
No. Thats incorrect. Its the same brain processing used to locate sound in nature and in stereo - we haven't evolved a new brain to enjoy stereos
That would be because I'm not doing that. Problem solving is an approach to critical thinking - its not a physical action.
I didn't know I was doing that. I'm afraid you've completely missed the point. I really admire your spirit and openness. I want to thank you for sharing and hope you have much happiness listening to music. As an aside I don't think spatial location is that important for music pleasure. In the old days before stereos I'm sure people loved their mono's. Imagine the money you will save if you only need a mono system. Cheers.
It's not, that's been the point throughout the thread. Without DSP the HRTF of a source left, right or left and right is significantly different than a single source centre. The brain is required to process and accept a suite of auditory data that doesn't occur naturally. Hearing 2-D imagining - a line left to right between speakers - may be another learned skill as was learning to localize 3-D as a toddler.
It seems that they just experience two sound sources which are producing at different sound levels.
If it is what I think it is, they can't as there is nothing to point to from their perception. But obviously, mtidge is much more qualified to tell what his experiences are. 🙂
I wouldn't rule it out, never heard of such an experiment though.
But our brain is a surprisingly versatile "thing" , so who knows? Therefore I mentioned that some people seem to have successfully trained their perception and are able to avoid th in head localisation problem when using headphones without any processing of the signals like using HRTFs.
Otoh, I'm not sure if we others are able to learn not perceiving the mid-center phantom source, but two seperated sound sources instead.