Wile I'd agree that room treatment is a very viable option to be able to make a small room sound bigger, I would have another suggestion based on the replies from the OP thus far...
Another bandwidth than tweeter alone is possible, I'd suggest to first experiment with a set/pair of full range drivers.
Reason: Create queues of a bigger space than the current listening room is capable of. The current reflections/diffraction gives away the size of the room.
This is what 'could' be cured with room treatment, but we know that isn't going to happen. One might get lucky with delayed queues that simulate a bigger
space. Easy to find out and it just might give hints of the proper scale the OP desires. It can be hidden from sight and it does change perception enough to
be a fun and educational experiment. Should the AV amp provide band limiting and delay, one can 'tune the room'.
The idea of those ambience speakers would be to fire towards a wall, as to diffract/reflect off of the wall/objects behind the speakers. Read the thread I linked...
- Add bass drivers to the current speakers (with a proper cross-over) or replace them with more capable speakers.
- Add back firing ambient speakers, hidden behind current speakers, with delay (should be possible with an AV poweramp, right?)
Another bandwidth than tweeter alone is possible, I'd suggest to first experiment with a set/pair of full range drivers.
Reason: Create queues of a bigger space than the current listening room is capable of. The current reflections/diffraction gives away the size of the room.
This is what 'could' be cured with room treatment, but we know that isn't going to happen. One might get lucky with delayed queues that simulate a bigger
space. Easy to find out and it just might give hints of the proper scale the OP desires. It can be hidden from sight and it does change perception enough to
be a fun and educational experiment. Should the AV amp provide band limiting and delay, one can 'tune the room'.
The idea of those ambience speakers would be to fire towards a wall, as to diffract/reflect off of the wall/objects behind the speakers. Read the thread I linked...
Troll? Are you kidding? Lest you forget I was the one who started this thread. And have been consistent in what I have posted throughout. So, I can hardly be considered a troll of my own posts.Troll, only this.....
Now you may not like some of what I posted. That's certainly a possibility and there are posters here who disagree with me on some things. Fine. That's fair. But if there is anyone trolling it is those people. Certainly not me.
Yeah, thanks Juhazi. The room treatment crowd has sort of taken over a lot of the recent responses and they don't like it when they are challenged.
I seriously doubt that many of them have actually tried all of the things they are suggesting and have conducted reasonable tests to verify the results. There is an awful lot of stuff being parroted from one poster to another without any real verification of the facts. Talk is cheap and easy. But doing proper tests to prove theories is not.
Right now, I'm convinced that the biggest difference will be made by a speaker change. Room treatments, if worth anything, can come later.
Thanks, wesayso. Yeah, I agree with this, particularly the need add more bass. Just need to figure out exactly how to do it.
I looked quickly at the Walso thread you referenced and will read it later when time permits.
Fyi what i wrote is based on my experience and i always aim for a valuable discussions rather than just a discussions.
Everyone's journey is different, and i wrote about cables because this is one of the most heated topics and probably the most polarising ever in audio, so i expect you will reject it with the hope that you will try and explore it someday and become enlightened.
Good luck.
I too believe to obtain a good sound stage you’ll need a good pre-amp. Good speakers and a nice amp doesn’t hurt either, oh yeah then there’s the front end, a nice turntable and cartridge… the upgrade path is endless…
If not already mentioned - and the amplifier will allow, I suggest a "Dyna Quad" connection with a couple of additional speakers - with some recordings it can give a vast sense of space.
Then why bother asking for advice? It's not our money or system and you made it clear you have no interest in suggestions outside of what you want to spend money on. This whole thread seems completely pointless.
which model Denon AVR is it you have?(if you mentioned it sorry I didn’t catch it) a bass module as in the Jeff Bagby version mentioned could be set up with the AVR subwoofer output, that would involve another amp though.
I run my #2 system pair of 10” subs with a sonance 260 stereo amp, it has adjustable gain and awesome bottom end grunt and can be had regularly for under $100 on fleabay. They just have a horrible grainy upper midrange, but that’s of no concern down low.
A pair of small powered subs would also fill that need.
Last edited:
Read my first post. I did ask for advice regarding whether a new speaker of new amplifier would increase the sound stage. That is, in fact, precisely the advice that I asked for.
And after a number of helpful responses, I happily concluded that the answer is new speakers. And I said so.
Nowhere did I ask for advice on room treatments. All of that has been posted despite my repeated comments that it is of no interest to me at this point.
So please put the blame on that aspect where it belongs. With others, not me.
Your misunderstanding of the acoustic system has resulted in you now passing the "blame" to others for giving you advice that exactly pertained to your situation. The fact that you didn't ask for acoustic advice only indicates your narrow scope of understanding. The fact that you didn't ask for that acoustic-related advice has now become a condemnation of those supplying the information, and is inappropriately applied as a filter to key information that would, in fact, address the core of your problem. You might try to deflect blame, but the situation is viewed very differently from outside your world.
Pointing fingers at people who honestly tried to help will achieve the result of getting you no help from them in the future, and maybe that exactly what you want. Regardless, that's what you'll get.
Sounds reasonable. I decided weeks ago that I had said all I could say on the main topic of this thread, and that I wouldn't make it my mission to convince you to accept my point of view. There is plenty of time to see where this thread goes. 😉
I have no misunderstand of the acoustic system. I am fully aware of room treatments and what they are purported to do. However, I have made it quite clear that I choose to not do any of them at this time.
Nevertheless, there are people here who have continuously pestered me because of my choice. Even after repeatedly expressing my lack of interest on the subject, people keep writing posts about room treatments and are then offended when I don't answer them.
So no, the issue is not with me. I have been perfectly clear on the matter from the beginning. If people want to write a post that's fine. But please don't expect me to respond to every one of those when I have already said I'm not interested in them.
You actually made it clear that you didn't want to actually change anything in post #19, "I'm very happy with my current speakers, with the room placement, seating position, etc. It's all fine and doesn't need to be redone. The sound is great. The only change I want to make is to increase the width and depth, particularly the width, of the sound stage. That's it. Everything else is excellent and doesn't need to be changed."
So...not changing anything but desiring a different result? Hmm...seems like I've heard that somewhere.
Then, "Any suggestions as to which amplifier to get. I've watched videos on YouTube and most of them talk about how the amp can expand the sound stage, but I'm not sure that I really trust that information. It all sounds just a little too good to be true. That's why I started this. To see if others think the amp can make that much of a difference."
Laser focus on the thing that makes the least or no difference at all. But we dare not tell you that!
Then: "I understand that the small room creates limitations on the sound field that can be achieved."
Followed by (pages later): "I’m not really convinced that it (acoustic treatment) will make that much of a difference in what I hear from what I'm hearing now."
Followed by: "Certainly, the room modifies the sound that you hear. But to conclude that it is a larger modifier of the sound than the speaker itself might be going a bit too far." (without even check any acoustic reference literature).
And then this: I'm not convinced that room treatments will make enough of a difference, if any at all, to be worth the effort, expense, and aesthetic issues.
Right. That's why serious listeners and professional recording and broadcast studios invest in room treatment. Because it doesn't make any difference at all.
And: "Nor am I convinced that I have an acoustic "mess" right now as you claim I have. Au contraire, I think the room is much less of a factor in what I hear than the speakers themselves."
You have self-evaluated and accpet your own opinion. Ever think of bringing in a consultant for about an hour? Afraid of what he might tell you?
Continuing: "...when people repeatedly post suggestions that I should add room treatments, adjust my listening position, and move the speakers around, it's apparent that they either have not read my previous posts or have read them and choose to ignore them. In either case I feel no responsibility to spend my time responding to posts that ignore my previous comments on the subject."
Not at all. It's because we've read your posts that we still suggest acoustic treatment.
And with this I'll stop: "And I'm not convinced that room treatments can accomplish what I want. In fact, I can see where too much absorption could actually decrease the size of the sound stage."
My point in all of this is that many have tried to assist you, but you are "not convinced" that room treatments matter, even though you. "understand that the small room creates limitations on the sound field that can be achieved."
Offended, no. Frustrated, yes.
Fair enough, but please understand that you've caused some here just a bit of frustration. You have a desire for improvement, but ignore one factor completely. Sometimes. Or not. It's confusing. But also no longer worth my time.
Just to cut through the advertising
"Playback Direct" "PURE" bypasses nothing, it just set all the eq and other settings to 0, see attached. It wouldn't be trivial to bypass all the op-amps and IC volume/tone controls etc.
Using the word "PURE" is pure marketing... Direct doesn't have the same positive connotation, I wonder if they considered Organic or Unsullied as an option.
"Playback Direct" "PURE" bypasses nothing, it just set all the eq and other settings to 0, see attached. It wouldn't be trivial to bypass all the op-amps and IC volume/tone controls etc.
Using the word "PURE" is pure marketing... Direct doesn't have the same positive connotation, I wonder if they considered Organic or Unsullied as an option.
Attachments
I think its best to let him be. These things have to be experience and with open minded....
That's a great summary. Thank you. And by now it should be pretty clear from it that I don't think room treatments are going to make much of a difference in increasing the sound stage. But whether I am right or wrong is not the point.
The point is that there have been numerous posts made continuing to promote room treatments and essentially insisting that is what I should be doing. Even after I've clearly stated my position on the matter. And then when I don't respond to these posts people get upset. People can post all they want about room treatments. I've never said that they shouldn't write those posts here.
But they have no right to expect me to respond to them or get upset when I don't. Expecting me to respond to each and every one, particularly since I've already declared my position on the matter, is going way too far. That is the problem.
Dear Classicalfan,
I must say that you have been very clear about what you want from your music system, right from the beginning. But then, have you considered the possibility that your answer does not lie among the options you have mentioned i.e. new amplifiers and new speakers ? If that's the case, then wouldn't it be like asking someone the following:
How much is 1+1 ?
a) 3
b) 4
Now, please note I'm not making fun of you or any of your wants, but there's always a possibility that the answer could very well not be among the given choices, while the question seems completely correct. Further, science in general (and acoustics in particular) is complicated enough to not let you choose your own answer from among the ones acceptable to you, which is also the basis for the phrase "the humble scientist".
Science is enforced humility
Regards.
I must say that you have been very clear about what you want from your music system, right from the beginning. But then, have you considered the possibility that your answer does not lie among the options you have mentioned i.e. new amplifiers and new speakers ? If that's the case, then wouldn't it be like asking someone the following:
How much is 1+1 ?
a) 3
b) 4
Now, please note I'm not making fun of you or any of your wants, but there's always a possibility that the answer could very well not be among the given choices, while the question seems completely correct. Further, science in general (and acoustics in particular) is complicated enough to not let you choose your own answer from among the ones acceptable to you, which is also the basis for the phrase "the humble scientist".
Science is enforced humility
Regards.