Hi Mark
Hmm, you might be right, you have that first hand experience. And I have seen that statement before, that you don´t need expensive drivers in a MEH.
It is somehow temting to start buying expensive components and expect that to be some kind of guarantee for a succesful build.
I am kind of happy that I found those HF1440´s second hand and let go of the AXI2050. Now I can get started and, have settled on a 1,4" throat. I also saved more than 80% of the cost of the AXI´s!
Steffen
Hmm, you might be right, you have that first hand experience. And I have seen that statement before, that you don´t need expensive drivers in a MEH.
It is somehow temting to start buying expensive components and expect that to be some kind of guarantee for a succesful build.
I am kind of happy that I found those HF1440´s second hand and let go of the AXI2050. Now I can get started and, have settled on a 1,4" throat. I also saved more than 80% of the cost of the AXI´s!
Steffen
I'm very interested in your take on the HF1440.
Yeah, so many times we make the mistake of thinking that spending money on best components assures success....when really it's the integration of the entire design that rules.
After careful listening, i realized my PoS construction-wise prototype, the original "SYN9 change of direction speaker" was with its crazy cheap drivers other than the CD which was the same, was better than the "improved" V2...that i was sure was gonna be better than the proto, since V2 used better mid drivers and better low drivers. Best laid plans of mice and men haha.
All i know know with V3 is,.... damn this is finest sound I've ever heard. Stereo, mono, dual mono, sweet spot, way to side, next room... doesn't matter.
Tonality, timbre, clarity, imaging, transients, dynamics ....quiet or loud, or gut rattling loud....YES.
tis why i'm building a third....might make a surround system out of these guys 🙂
Yeah, so many times we make the mistake of thinking that spending money on best components assures success....when really it's the integration of the entire design that rules.
After careful listening, i realized my PoS construction-wise prototype, the original "SYN9 change of direction speaker" was with its crazy cheap drivers other than the CD which was the same, was better than the "improved" V2...that i was sure was gonna be better than the proto, since V2 used better mid drivers and better low drivers. Best laid plans of mice and men haha.
All i know know with V3 is,.... damn this is finest sound I've ever heard. Stereo, mono, dual mono, sweet spot, way to side, next room... doesn't matter.
Tonality, timbre, clarity, imaging, transients, dynamics ....quiet or loud, or gut rattling loud....YES.
tis why i'm building a third....might make a surround system out of these guys 🙂
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The 1440’s diaphragm is Ketone Polymer
a friend has one of the other FaitalPro Ketone Polymer drivers, and finds it much more listenable than other CDs
a friend has one of the other FaitalPro Ketone Polymer drivers, and finds it much more listenable than other CDs
Hi otto88
That is my hope too. I have zero experience with compression-drivers and choose it for its reputation.
Steffen
That is my hope too. I have zero experience with compression-drivers and choose it for its reputation.
Steffen
Hi Mark
Yeah, thinking about it all the time, details and "how to" this and that! It´s a bit of a massive project! The closer I come to actually start, the more overwhelming it seems. But now I have all drivers at hand to start with, and will have to learn as I go. I do fight with this idea of "doing it all right the first time" and bla bla bla...... But I guess I will have to do a couple versions too and accept to scrap som wood! And baltic birch plywood has really skyrocketed lately.
I´ve been reading all I can about MEH´s here and on klipsch-community for years and guess I have to find my own way through with a little help now and then. I will share my thoughts in my own thread. I have a name for it already 🙂 .
To have my own MEH has really developed into a great passion. I have once heard a pair of SM60F´s with sub in a studio near Copenhagen. I was not blown away, but it was more a sense of everything being right, like an ideal fullrange-driver that could go really loud without collapsing!
Yeah, that´s the dream. Build really big and put into the corners of my listening-room to have as little room-interference as possible!
First thing will be to build a "stand" for the MEH´s: Two dual opposed subs for the corners. I expect I will have my ekstra 18" drivers next week! I attach my old drawing for others to know what I am speaking of.
That was a bit of entertainment for the weekend to keep this thread going 😉.
Best Regards
Steffen
Yeah, thinking about it all the time, details and "how to" this and that! It´s a bit of a massive project! The closer I come to actually start, the more overwhelming it seems. But now I have all drivers at hand to start with, and will have to learn as I go. I do fight with this idea of "doing it all right the first time" and bla bla bla...... But I guess I will have to do a couple versions too and accept to scrap som wood! And baltic birch plywood has really skyrocketed lately.
I´ve been reading all I can about MEH´s here and on klipsch-community for years and guess I have to find my own way through with a little help now and then. I will share my thoughts in my own thread. I have a name for it already 🙂 .
To have my own MEH has really developed into a great passion. I have once heard a pair of SM60F´s with sub in a studio near Copenhagen. I was not blown away, but it was more a sense of everything being right, like an ideal fullrange-driver that could go really loud without collapsing!
Yeah, that´s the dream. Build really big and put into the corners of my listening-room to have as little room-interference as possible!
First thing will be to build a "stand" for the MEH´s: Two dual opposed subs for the corners. I expect I will have my ekstra 18" drivers next week! I attach my old drawing for others to know what I am speaking of.
That was a bit of entertainment for the weekend to keep this thread going 😉.
Best Regards
Steffen
I see you have chosen/ have your drivers, but some good measurements on box and horn responses, and blog analyseses here https://data-bass.com/#/systems?sort=mfr:-1,name:-1&_k=9axxnk
Hi otto88
Yeah, I have seen that list before, and my 18" drivers are not listed, although it is an old (20 years or more) design as far as I know. Maybe because it´s only sold in Europe. Here is a link: https://www.monacor.com/products/components/speaker-technology/hi-fi-speakers-/sph-450tc/
As said, I had two and bought two more used.
Some data: Fs=20Hz, Vas=480l, Qts=0,25, Forcefactor=32,4 Tm, Xmax=+/-12,9mm and Sd=1250sqcm. It´s said to be a bit odd driver, what ever!?
I am pretty sure it will work fine as a sub in a closed box and of aprox 160 l with a Qtc of 0,5 and a Fc of 40Hz, and then some active Linkwitz transform to pull it down, maybe.
Well this is getting off topic, sorry Mark. This is about the SYN9, that I am very inspired by.
Steffen
Yeah, I have seen that list before, and my 18" drivers are not listed, although it is an old (20 years or more) design as far as I know. Maybe because it´s only sold in Europe. Here is a link: https://www.monacor.com/products/components/speaker-technology/hi-fi-speakers-/sph-450tc/
As said, I had two and bought two more used.
Some data: Fs=20Hz, Vas=480l, Qts=0,25, Forcefactor=32,4 Tm, Xmax=+/-12,9mm and Sd=1250sqcm. It´s said to be a bit odd driver, what ever!?
I am pretty sure it will work fine as a sub in a closed box and of aprox 160 l with a Qtc of 0,5 and a Fc of 40Hz, and then some active Linkwitz transform to pull it down, maybe.
Well this is getting off topic, sorry Mark. This is about the SYN9, that I am very inspired by.
Steffen
Hi Steffen, worry not about OT....not at all.
We're all here to learn and share imo......and i'm not one of the folks who feel they own a thread just because they were the OP.
We're all here to learn and share imo......and i'm not one of the folks who feel they own a thread just because they were the OP.
Mark, you mentioned in another thread that you do not trust PC for DSP/crossover. What DSP are you actually using for the processing? What kind of filters are you using? I am just finishing my Synergy style horn prototypes and will need some permanent DSP system in future - for a stereo 4 way system.
Hi pelanj, i've settled in on Q-Sys processing, and the associated QSC Cores.
A Core is a piece of hardware that runs Linux processing, compiled by a PC. You can literally design your imaginations.
They of course have limitation in terms of processing powe,r by model, but imo the base Core110f is an extremely viable, and desirable, processing solution.
Right now, i'm running 15 channels of FIR processing, all high-passed by IIR (for the subs). 16,384 taps per channel...hardware! Core 500i i picked up used off ebay for $1100.
With the ability to change FIR files on the fly, adjust any parameter/control in the design on the fly, completely change major parameter groups like full IIR xovers vs lin phase xovers....etc, ect, in whatever control screen design/layout, with whatever/ how many presets you want to make , on a PC, or even a flippin iphone....etc.
This open architecture stuff rocks...it's right around the door as the common-place way to do it ...even for brain-dead home audio i think. Lol
A Core is a piece of hardware that runs Linux processing, compiled by a PC. You can literally design your imaginations.
They of course have limitation in terms of processing powe,r by model, but imo the base Core110f is an extremely viable, and desirable, processing solution.
Right now, i'm running 15 channels of FIR processing, all high-passed by IIR (for the subs). 16,384 taps per channel...hardware! Core 500i i picked up used off ebay for $1100.
With the ability to change FIR files on the fly, adjust any parameter/control in the design on the fly, completely change major parameter groups like full IIR xovers vs lin phase xovers....etc, ect, in whatever control screen design/layout, with whatever/ how many presets you want to make , on a PC, or even a flippin iphone....etc.
This open architecture stuff rocks...it's right around the door as the common-place way to do it ...even for brain-dead home audio i think. Lol
Hi Mark,
Q-Sys - could it handle all of/ how well would it handle all or most of these functions?
I need to choose a platform/s - preferably just one - for -
XOs -
including driver EQ (with
some parametric EQ) and definitely time alignment - of a horn system.
Ideally phase alignment (although I know very little about it at this point in time).
It could well develop from an initial two-way into a four-way (five??)
EQ - I want to be able to add multiple EQ curves -
… and sometimes change the combination. Preferably on the fly. In no particular order:
- room EQ,
- a version or two of the Harmon curve,
- One of 2/3 generic adjustments for “limited recordings” e.g. early 1960s pop
- a handful of curves for specific albums with an unusual/ bad sound. LZ’s Houses of the Holy comes to mind (Although I really only like two or three tracks, and I’m not sure how fixable it will be with EQ … probably I’ll dial the upper frequencies down)
Recently I happened across a well-built pair of Edgar Monolith bass horns, which are coming soon. So I need to get onto this
fyi: I was about to look into Dirac, possibly on a PC/ plus miniDSP hardware
I’m very open about the hardware & software. Although my brain might strike issues if it gets very/ complicated lol
Your thoughts?
Hi otto88
You could have a look at this, "Acourate":
https://www.audiovero.de/en/acourate.php
It is a PC-based power-tool for all the things you mentioned. You will need Acourate - the High-End Audio Toolbox and AcourateConvolver - The Online Convolution Program for about €500, see prices on the webside.
Hardware you need a PC and a soundcard or som multichannel DAC.
This is the route that I might go in the end. As of now I own six MiniDSP PWR-ICE125 and an OPEN_DRC as controlcenter (all digitally conected) and will start with IIR filters and see if that is OK. But ultimately I want to see/listen to linear phase and will have to go FIR. I do own a MiniDSP U-DIO8 to connect my PC with the MiniDSP PWR-ICE125´s to have 8 independent channels, i.e. a stereo 4 way sytem.
Best regards
Steffen
You could have a look at this, "Acourate":
https://www.audiovero.de/en/acourate.php
It is a PC-based power-tool for all the things you mentioned. You will need Acourate - the High-End Audio Toolbox and AcourateConvolver - The Online Convolution Program for about €500, see prices on the webside.
Hardware you need a PC and a soundcard or som multichannel DAC.
This is the route that I might go in the end. As of now I own six MiniDSP PWR-ICE125 and an OPEN_DRC as controlcenter (all digitally conected) and will start with IIR filters and see if that is OK. But ultimately I want to see/listen to linear phase and will have to go FIR. I do own a MiniDSP U-DIO8 to connect my PC with the MiniDSP PWR-ICE125´s to have 8 independent channels, i.e. a stereo 4 way sytem.
Best regards
Steffen
Thanks Mark. That sounds like the ultimate solution, but the prices of new equipment are crazy. I forgot to ask - which program do you use to create the FIR filters? Rephase or some other? I guess I will have to stay with my small DSPs and CamillaDSP for a while before I can find a good deal on some better hardware.
Hi Steffen,
I had a bit of a look at Acourate about a month ago. The prolific Mitch Barnett used to champion it. But I read somewhere that he had possibly become more keen on Audiolense.
I just came across this recent video in which he recommends four - either of those two, or Focus Fidelity Designer or DRC
A long & comprehensive tutorial video
I have yet to watch and see if he gives any clues as to which of those for he would go for. it maybe that it depends on your criteria
I had a bit of a look at Acourate about a month ago. The prolific Mitch Barnett used to champion it. But I read somewhere that he had possibly become more keen on Audiolense.
I just came across this recent video in which he recommends four - either of those two, or Focus Fidelity Designer or DRC
A long & comprehensive tutorial video
I have yet to watch and see if he gives any clues as to which of those for he would go for. it maybe that it depends on your criteria
Hi Otto88
Thanks for the video 🙂
I have the book by Mitch Barnett on Acourate. I tried to read it and got half-way through. I guess it is easier to get through the book and understand it with Acourate at hand, gaining real experience as you go along.
There are many routes to go! And much learning to do.
For me it is an advantedge, that Uli Brueggemann speaks german as I do too. And I think the software is pretty well established and acknowledged.
Steffen
Thanks for the video 🙂
I have the book by Mitch Barnett on Acourate. I tried to read it and got half-way through. I guess it is easier to get through the book and understand it with Acourate at hand, gaining real experience as you go along.
There are many routes to go! And much learning to do.
For me it is an advantedge, that Uli Brueggemann speaks german as I do too. And I think the software is pretty well established and acknowledged.
Steffen
Hi Otto88,
yes, Q-Sys could easily handle all the tasks you listed. I'll make some comments.
Individual driver EQs can be any amount of parametric or shelving EQs Delays can be set to a precision of one 48kHz sample, or 0.02ms.
IIR xovers can be LR, BW, Bessel, of Cheby up to 96/dB/oct. 2-way thru 6-way.
Stock FIR high-pass and low-pass filters can be used as xovers, from 40dB/oct,to 100dB/per 1/4oct
Of course tradition IIR xover phase alignment exists. In addition to the stock FIR high and low pass, custom FIR filters allow further phase alignment of individual drivers. The amount or FIR capability varies by Core. I use a Core110f for 10 channels (stereo 5-way) of custom FIR, 4096 taps per channel. Not much room past that, although 2 channels works fine at 8192 taps per channel.
You could easily create a separate EQ bank for each of those tasks, along with presets for each bank. Real time control of any adjustable parameter in the design is available via any PC on your network, as is recalling the presets .
The Core110f is the core to get, as it has USB I/O. 8 analog in / 8 analog out / with an additional 8 that can be individual assigned as in or out. All bal/unbal. The I/O flexibility is great, the design flexibility is hard to imagine.
Q-sys is easy to learn due to the excellent training videos series. If still interested, check my reply to pelanj as to cost/how to get...
Yeah, the retail price lists do look crazy.. My guess is the street price of a new Core110f is about $2400, just judging where I've bought new QSC amplifiers vs retail list.
But i wouldn't buy a new 110f. QSC stuff is very robust, and if service is ever needed, it's fast and reasonable.
They show up used on ebay for $1250 or so if a shopper is patient. All the $2000+ offers are just looking for someone in a hurry, or a mullet, i guess. You do have to be diligent though, a 110f rarely stays around more than a day at $1250. (I got one for $750 once !!! 🙂)
I've been using FirDesigner to make FIR files, after learning with rephase. Rephase totally works, totally rocks imo, it's just FirD's auto-mag and phase make life so much easier.
I should add i've never tried FIR room correction or any auto room correction yet. Maybe i'll look at Audiolense or Accourate or even Dirac if i decide to try it...but i doubt i'll ever go that way.
Hi Mark
Thank you. After you'd first mentioned them I did a search on their price, and (in combo with their power), thought overkill for my application.
But - if they sometimes come up at ~ 1250, that's probably not much more than a quiet pc and good software
So Ive created a serach on ebay, and elsewhere. as you say, patience
Would I be right that it could run two or three active systems (eg living room + other rooms) - simultaneously?