you said "bipole, dipole, MBL ..." ! I think it is worse in a little room because the near walls...
Depends on the goal. I recommended dipole only, I did not recommend bipol, and disqualified MBL based on cost. For the OP trying for his goal of a larger soundstage, dipoles mounted high on the walls with the null directed to the LP, forward and back, would in fact work just fine. The could provide a controllable sense of a large "soundstage" by the Op's definition.
Bipole would not work well, definitely, and you're correct to point ot near walls as a problem. And yes I have experienced MBL speakers, several models. The effect is a huge glob of directionless and diffuse sound with no ability to provide any clear indication of where anything was actually coming from. I was called to "calibrate" this system with 5 MBL speakers in a 5.1 configuration. Calibration was literally impossible, though he seemed to think my efforts resulted in an improvement. It felt like drowning in a sea of sound, but th owner was quite happy.
Yeah, I'm still here and just trying to keep up with all discussion. It's certainly a lot more than I expected. But I do appreciate it and hopefully it's helpful to some others here as well.
Perhaps the room is collapsing your soundstage. Sure, you can get it bigger than the room.. just don't involve the room and it will naturally be bigger.
Since you can't change the room, the way to change the acoustics is to change the speakers. Normally you would want bigger speakers for a smaller room (also narrow dispersion). Another chance is to go omnidirectional, because when it comes to rooms, all or nothing can be two ways to improve imaging.
Since you can't change the room, the way to change the acoustics is to change the speakers. Normally you would want bigger speakers for a smaller room (also narrow dispersion). Another chance is to go omnidirectional, because when it comes to rooms, all or nothing can be two ways to improve imaging.
Yes, you can also make use of the room. My bedroom is only 2m wide and with a normal setup nothing sounds good in there so I made the sidewalls part of the system. All sound is reflected via the sidewalls, not only the off-axis sound, that would only create ripples and suckouts due to cancelation and causes a lot of time-smearing. It might sound strange but actually that is very common practice in car-audio and mobile studio's. See the walls as a waveguide and integrate it into the design. That worked for me, but Classicalfan's room might be too wide for that. So, no I also don't have the ultimate solution for your particular situtation but I can only encourage you to think outside the box😉 Soundstage IS possible in smal rooms, even in a car or a toilet for that matter but not with just throwing in some speakers at a random spot.
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We've already covered this. Auditory Acuity, in the USA, is a measure of the ability to hear, with the result being a metric used to determine if hearing aids are required.
Other countries include the ability to use hearing as a listening tool in the term "Acuity". Aparently, both are correct depending on where you are. In the USA, acuity never gets better, it always measures worse with age and time.
Volviendo al tema del hilo, encontré esto, ¡espero que nos ayuden a las ovejas perdidas a volver al redil !
Going back to the topic of the thread, I found this, I hope it helps us lost sheep to return to the fold !
https://audioengineusa.com/explore/...ambién,ability to accurately reproduce sound.
Going back to the topic of the thread, I found this, I hope it helps us lost sheep to return to the fold !
https://audioengineusa.com/explore/...ambién,ability to accurately reproduce sound.
Off-topic posts split out into a new thread: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/hearing-acuity.382628/
dave
diyAudio moderation team
dave
diyAudio moderation team
While I tend to agree with their general definition, many here have clearly stated they separate "image" and "soundstage" into two exclusive qualities. I don't agree, but to complicate matters, there is no widely accepted definition of the term "soundstage" other than the facility in which movies are made. So I guess everybody can be right, and everybody can be wrong.
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Is it possible they intended to say 'imaging' vs 'spaciousness'? Those are more commonly differentiated here and it's easy enough to mix up two big 's' words.
Yes, it’s always been my impression that loudspeakers “image” and the “soundstage” is something created/preserved in the recording and mixing stage. So the soundstage is something inherent to a recording which is enhanced by loudspeakers that can image well. Spaciousness is an effect of the reverberant field in a listening space. Too much very early reverberation can interfere with imagining, hence all the experimentation done with loudspeaker radiation patterns (ie Omni, waveguides, diffusers, LEDE).
In my opinion, using “soundstage” as a verb in regard to loudspeakers is a misunderstanding of the cause and effect.
In my opinion, using “soundstage” as a verb in regard to loudspeakers is a misunderstanding of the cause and effect.
Yes, or dedicated delayed “ceiling splash” drivers which I had alluded to a few pages back…
I hate recordings that have had reverb added on purpose.
They sound contrived.
The width is part of the sound stage, but the sensation of depth is
what predominates, if there are no sounds "back there", there is no sound stage.
Imagine a conventional photograph and a stereoscopic one, that's it!
They sound contrived.
The width is part of the sound stage, but the sensation of depth is
what predominates, if there are no sounds "back there", there is no sound stage.
Imagine a conventional photograph and a stereoscopic one, that's it!
I don’t think it’s that cut and dry. The point under consideration is that spaciousness should be tailored to the replay environment, not baked into the recording itself. There are time delay, amplitude and EQ thresholds (with regard to the main listening position) past which reflections add spaciousness to the replay environment rather than interfere with the image itself. Anytime one moves speakers or their listening position around in a room they are negotiating this balance. Same with swapping out speakers altogether. It is unavoidable.
A speaker with zero spaciousness from early reflections can image beyond the speakers and room boundaries.
A well set up omni can show that when you have full room involvement, the imaging can again be recovered. It appears to be the partial, more unintentional reflection set of a speaker not designed for the room where many seem to report issues.
A well set up omni can show that when you have full room involvement, the imaging can again be recovered. It appears to be the partial, more unintentional reflection set of a speaker not designed for the room where many seem to report issues.
Consider Gerry Rafferty's Baker Street. There is reverb on the vocals.
On normal speakers you can't even tell it is there.
On good speakers the effect is clear and it stands alone so there is no problem interfering with imaging. It is also not hiding anything so there is no apparent point to it being there. It does not add to enjoyment and sounds out of place. I can only imagine the studio was using a setup that wasn't good enough.
I have listened to a pair of controlled directivity loudspeakers outside so I have experienced strong imagining without significant reflections (being pedantic about diffraction here). Also, there was spaciousness as baked into the recording itself via ambient mics but I would not consider the playback as “enveloping” which is what I assume is desired when people speak of a lack of spaciousness.
I do not want or need 'enveloping'. The image is in front of me as it is supposed to be, it isn't blurred or distorted, what's to want for?
On the other hand, late reflections are quite welcome. These are a gentle and comforting reminder that you are still in the room, without affecting the sound.
Oh yes, when I said early reflections that means diffractions too.
On the other hand, late reflections are quite welcome. These are a gentle and comforting reminder that you are still in the room, without affecting the sound.
Oh yes, when I said early reflections that means diffractions too.