Many recordings include information about venue size and musician compliment. If not, that auditory illusion wouldn't exist at all for recordings. In playback, you'd have to add reverb to approximate the effect. I've not found the instance that requires that as of yet.
A more diffuse room may help with increasing the illusion of a larger sound stage but the loudspeakers have to produce the required level of power to make that happen in the first place. Equipment in front of the loudspeakers can't/won't change the loudspeakers characteristics. Small loudspeakers will still be small loudspeakers. I've just associated the use of diffusion in the case of loudspeakers being a bit too large for the room.
Last edited:
Be wary of your own biases. Absence of proof is not proof of absence, which is to say that your experience does not invalidate the experience of others. If you haven't seen a dodo in the woods, it does not prove there are no dodos in the woods. If someone else sees a dodo in the woods, the fact you haven't seen the dodo does not cancel the other person's encounter.
You start from a wrong budget because you don't know anything about me.
I have spent more time than you in audio, I am an electronic technician specialized in audio, I had a business selling these items, - which allowed me to listen to many - and I have made many comparisons of amplifiers. That's why I put "minimum level", I suppose you know the difference, and not to talk between SS and valve.
And the tests were performed with a double-blind system. (ABX)
Oh gawd, people are willing waving their credentials now. This thread has lost all chance of helping anyone now...
It is so, and even large speakers for a given room can give a great sound, contrary to the belief that it will sound muddy and with a lot of reverberation. It all depends on what SPL you intend to listen to. At the same SPL, the small driver works much harder on its travel (Xmax), which muddies the bass.
I do not think so if you are talking of the low end and even the upper bass say below 200 hz, all of that is the domain of the room cose often below the Helmholtz frequency of the room. You have the feeling it is muddy sometimes because the little bass drivers suck a lot of watt and amps may not alwayq follow that demand...but anyway the room is rulling the bass behavior. We talk about "little room" where the wave length are bigger than the distance of the listeners from the loudspeakers and side walls, sometimes close to the back wall with it raising spl.
If the envelopment is mainly from the medium to the mid treble (5k hz ? Toole book ?) then it is mostly the power response curve that matters in relation to the first reflexion because of their higher spl vs the later reflexion.
If the op toe in the units to change side walls reverbs area or timing it may be also have pain because this time the medium and treble become less off axis, i.e, brigth, i.e false details behavior and fatigue.
Better to put the two units far from the walls, listener nearer distance than the length between the two units. And if possible experimznt with one or two little sub for the bass as some suggested. But I surmise the most importqnt is the global power response i.e. shape of the spl curve. A little more bass given with the room gain or eq gives this feeling of space. Whatever the speaker size a diving spl from the low end towards the high end is better. What you wqnt to diffuse is certainly what is usefull to delay : the first high energy bouncing, latest are good for imaging, no ? But ok, for the punch effect around 100 hz, bigger Sd are working in direct field, below, smaller standalone sub finely positioned in the room are better (Earl G.?)
If the envelopment is mainly from the medium to the mid treble (5k hz ? Toole book ?) then it is mostly the power response curve that matters in relation to the first reflexion because of their higher spl vs the later reflexion.
If the op toe in the units to change side walls reverbs area or timing it may be also have pain because this time the medium and treble become less off axis, i.e, brigth, i.e false details behavior and fatigue.
Better to put the two units far from the walls, listener nearer distance than the length between the two units. And if possible experimznt with one or two little sub for the bass as some suggested. But I surmise the most importqnt is the global power response i.e. shape of the spl curve. A little more bass given with the room gain or eq gives this feeling of space. Whatever the speaker size a diving spl from the low end towards the high end is better. What you wqnt to diffuse is certainly what is usefull to delay : the first high energy bouncing, latest are good for imaging, no ? But ok, for the punch effect around 100 hz, bigger Sd are working in direct field, below, smaller standalone sub finely positioned in the room are better (Earl G.?)
Agreed.
True. We know from surround that the typical energy from surround speakers is an average of 10dB below the fronts, and they contribute adequately to the illusion of size. The first arrival from the mains will always dominate, even in a diffuse field system. Adequate power is simply not an issue. The diffuse field speakers will not, and should not, operate at the same level as the mains.
Well, that's not true or EQ wouldn't work, and DSP EQ can be applied with surgical precision. There are many things that can be inserted before the speakers that change many characteristics, though not the physical ones like dispersion angles (as one example). Even one of the many 3D sound processes can change the apparent size of the room, though the seem to be in powerful disfavor here, but none the less true.
Yes, but in a properly calibrated 2.1 system, the apparent size of the mains is effectively increased, while retaining the focus and imaging of smaller speakers....if that's what someone wants. Most professionals do.
Lost me on that one.
That's why you don't want them to. Enter the sub and proper splicing, the small speaker Xmax issue goes away.
OK, here we go.... My pro-audio career is now 52 years long. I've sold audio, built professional studios, designed and built pro audio gear, done extensive controlled ABX testing....really? Must we? I was OK with the unstated mutual disrespect. I suggest we just move on.
... but you advice open baffle speaker in a small room if I didn't missread? For me it makes no sense in small room i.e. close walls... related to the op main problem (we mainly do not care for live classical music imho or his room is so horrible he should move)...or think monitors and close listening distance... like in control rooms.
Oddly since everyone now has a phone with a camera in it claims of dodo sightings have been thin on the ground...
With all due respect, I really don't want to offend you in any way, please don't get me wrong on that but with a 52-year audio career, you must be very well aware of the fact that your own ears can not be fully trusted anymore. (the same counts for everyone here over 60) As frustrating as it might be, that is the truth. The angle at which you are able to locate sounds has severely widened from a couple of degrees in your 20's to 30 degrees or more now. Older people do hear differently and do have a different perception of sound, it's impossible you are not aware of that. It's good to know this information, it puts your post into perspective.
I've read that, thanks Dave. Just that Linkwitz may have been combining the two characteristics, at least to my reading of that article. His use of "Auditory Scene" refers to the sound stage along with his sense of improved imaging. As you say, he coined that phrase ... of which nobody here has used till now. That doesn't negate the fact that they are two separate characteristics. Let it go Dave. 🙂
He, Linkwitz, was in fact using a second set of loudspeakers to accomplish that larger "Auditory Scene". Which speaks to having additional/greater sound source to achieve that.
You were the one who showed your authorization card first... and now it's wrong for me to show you mine? 🤔 Yes, let's move on....
Yes, I have written it but that part disappeared.....something is wrong here.
I clarified that despite my age I hear perfectly up to 15 Khz, tested with Audacity, I think there are "dodos" in this forest....