My current speakers are pretty good, but I want them to be as good as they can be. Right now, I have B&C DE250s running down to about 1kHz on 18Sound XT120 horns. Below that, there's a couple of Seas H1252-08 (8" midbass units, hard aluminium cones). I'm aware that running a 1" driver down to 1kHz on that horn is asking quite a lot, but my listening levels are pretty sensible and I haven't encountered any issues with distortion in the midrange - the woofers run out of excursion first.
The NSD1095N looks to be smoother and more extended in the upper treble than the DE250. There's also the high-tech motor and the fact that breakup modes are pushed out past 20kHz. It looks excellent.
I've looked at the datasheets from Faital Pro, BMS, B&C and other 18Sound products, and I can't find much else (except some very expensive Beryllium models) which tick the same boxes.
My question is this: is there anything better at a similar price?
Thanks in advance,
Chris
PS - I agree that the woofers could also do with being upgraded at some point, but I'm looking at tweeters for now.
The NSD1095N looks to be smoother and more extended in the upper treble than the DE250. There's also the high-tech motor and the fact that breakup modes are pushed out past 20kHz. It looks excellent.
I've looked at the datasheets from Faital Pro, BMS, B&C and other 18Sound products, and I can't find much else (except some very expensive Beryllium models) which tick the same boxes.
My question is this: is there anything better at a similar price?
Thanks in advance,
Chris
PS - I agree that the woofers could also do with being upgraded at some point, but I'm looking at tweeters for now.
The break-up of the NSD1095N is not in the ultrasonic region, even the cheaper ND1090 is better in this regard. Objectively speaking.
http://www.justdiyit.com/grand-comparatif-de-compressions-1-pouce/4/
http://www.justdiyit.com/grand-comparatif-de-compressions-1-pouce/4/
Interesting website! Thanks for posting that - in all of my searching, I hadn't seen it.
I do wonder, though, if the ND1090 and NSD1095N are mixed up in those graphs. When you look at the manufacturer's data:
https://www.eighteensound.it/en/products/hf-driver/1-0/8/NSD1095Nhttps://www.eighteensound.it/en/products/hf-driver/1-0/8/ND1090
It looks to me like the it's the ND1090 that has a resonance in the ~17kHz area.
Either way, both drivers performed well compared to the others on the test, especially in harmonic distortion. The inclusion of the DE250 is really informative, so thanks again for posting that.
All the best,
Chris
I do wonder, though, if the ND1090 and NSD1095N are mixed up in those graphs. When you look at the manufacturer's data:
https://www.eighteensound.it/en/products/hf-driver/1-0/8/NSD1095Nhttps://www.eighteensound.it/en/products/hf-driver/1-0/8/ND1090
It looks to me like the it's the ND1090 that has a resonance in the ~17kHz area.
Either way, both drivers performed well compared to the others on the test, especially in harmonic distortion. The inclusion of the DE250 is really informative, so thanks again for posting that.
All the best,
Chris
They may have been mixed up, we can’t be sure, but I had a pair of ND1090s and their CSD looked more like in the test. But according to my (at least I heard) and some other's experience, both the ND1090 and NSD1095 have a "metallic" aftertaste in their sound character, which didn't appear in the measurements.
I don't know if you will like it but this looks the best for me for a compression driver: https://www.kartesian-acoustic.com/copie-de-cmp35-vpa The brand is the since short launched diyshop part of a long time OEM builder for high end audio speakers. They are very known in Europe for this. Research them.
The pitfall is, only for sale in one shop as their only distributor for diy crowd: https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/lo...-kartesian-cmp65-vpa-8-ohm-1-5-inch-exit.html
The pitfall is, only for sale in one shop as their only distributor for diy crowd: https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/lo...-kartesian-cmp65-vpa-8-ohm-1-5-inch-exit.html
I have some Kartesian drivers here - their 4" ferrite subwoofers are very cool, and I've been keeping an eye on their other offerings.
Their Cmp35_vPA model (https://www.kartesian-acoustic.com/copie-de-cmp25-vhp) looks promising, but I have concerns: the impedance plot suggests a resonance in the 10kHz range. I haven't seen any independent testing, whereas the NSD1095N comes with recommendations from Troels among others.
Tommus, you make a good point about the horns. YSDR's link shows that compression drivers have improved since the B&C DE250, but a different horn could be on the cards for sure. The XT1086 would make the cabinets wider than I'd like - picture below. The RCF H100 is another option. The manufacturer's data is much more limited, but it does match the width of the woofers to the millimetre - a cosmetic bonus.
Chris
Their Cmp35_vPA model (https://www.kartesian-acoustic.com/copie-de-cmp25-vhp) looks promising, but I have concerns: the impedance plot suggests a resonance in the 10kHz range. I haven't seen any independent testing, whereas the NSD1095N comes with recommendations from Troels among others.
Tommus, you make a good point about the horns. YSDR's link shows that compression drivers have improved since the B&C DE250, but a different horn could be on the cards for sure. The XT1086 would make the cabinets wider than I'd like - picture below. The RCF H100 is another option. The manufacturer's data is much more limited, but it does match the width of the woofers to the millimetre - a cosmetic bonus.
Chris
Oberton HF45 has been working well in testing. Works well on the XT120.
Very smooth non fatiguing sound. Other 1" drivers I have tried include Selenium D220, DE250, and the Peerless DFM2544.
The Peerless is nice as well. A bit more etched sounding than the Oberton.
Lots of good reports for the Faital HF108 too.
Very smooth non fatiguing sound. Other 1" drivers I have tried include Selenium D220, DE250, and the Peerless DFM2544.
The Peerless is nice as well. A bit more etched sounding than the Oberton.
Lots of good reports for the Faital HF108 too.
Speaking of the RCF H100, I speculate the "CD 90/75 Horn" in datasheets of BMS drivers is the RCF H100. If so that could give some indications about the performance of the drivers, including distortion measurements. Personally I find the BMS 4538 interesting, I think the FR looks pretty good and extended. It has a smaller diameter voice coil, indicating a lower compression ratio, which is, based on what I picked up here (and my lay intuition), would be desirable trait for home hifi use, though I'm not sure how much weight should be given to this aspect. I think the distortion measurements look good as well down to 1KHz and the impedance looks flat, which is nice to have.
The RCF H100 is a biradial style horn, I think, BMS drivers are ring radiators, I wonder if they have a spherical wavefront? I should ask this in the ATH4 thread.
18Sound have the ND1020, this model also has a smaller voice coil / dome, plastic diaphragm, and a low resonance frequency. I think this is a fairly unique combination.
Speaking of Oberton, they have the ND45, D44, with plastic diaphragm, low resonance frequency (like the Faitals). Their datasheets also show a "CD 90/75 Horn", I guess that could be their own horn that looks very similar to the RCF.
The Faital HF109 16 ohm version looks super flat on their datasheets, I wonder how it was measured.
The RCF H100 is a biradial style horn, I think, BMS drivers are ring radiators, I wonder if they have a spherical wavefront? I should ask this in the ATH4 thread.
18Sound have the ND1020, this model also has a smaller voice coil / dome, plastic diaphragm, and a low resonance frequency. I think this is a fairly unique combination.
Speaking of Oberton, they have the ND45, D44, with plastic diaphragm, low resonance frequency (like the Faitals). Their datasheets also show a "CD 90/75 Horn", I guess that could be their own horn that looks very similar to the RCF.
The Faital HF109 16 ohm version looks super flat on their datasheets, I wonder how it was measured.
Just a quick note that I've ordered an RCF H100 to compare with the XT120 horns. I know the other drivers will give a slightly-different wavefront at the throat, but I'm hoping there'll be some hint that one performs better/worse than the other.
The jury is still out on the NSD1095N, but it still appears to be the one to beat. FWIW, I'm looking at hard metal diaphragms because it keeps to the original design idea of "what if all the diaphragms are operating as pistons?"
Chris
The jury is still out on the NSD1095N, but it still appears to be the one to beat. FWIW, I'm looking at hard metal diaphragms because it keeps to the original design idea of "what if all the diaphragms are operating as pistons?"
Chris
I just remembered there's this comparison that rates the FR of quite a few driver and horn parings: https://lsv-achenbach.de/horn_treiberkombis.htm
It has the H100 and the XT120 and some of the drivers in question. The NSD1095N gets a + on the XT120 and is a notch below - on the H100. The HD1050, ND1018BT and DE250 have the best ratings on the H100 here.
It has the H100 and the XT120 and some of the drivers in question. The NSD1095N gets a + on the XT120 and is a notch below - on the H100. The HD1050, ND1018BT and DE250 have the best ratings on the H100 here.
Chris, you didn't not say whether you using active (analogue or DSP) or passive filtering.
With active filtering, the raw fr of a driver+horn combo matters less, when choosing.
Anyway, the NSD1095 is one if the best 1" CD and the XT120 is one of the best horn for that type of tweeters and size. I say try it! If you don't like how it sounds, you can sell the NSD easily, I bet.
Moreover there is a new 1" CD from 18sound, the ND1TP, here tested with the XT120 (although, it's in a lower position in the line-up and cheaper than the NSD):
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-eighteen-sound-nd1tp-compression-driver-and-xt120-horn
With active filtering, the raw fr of a driver+horn combo matters less, when choosing.
Anyway, the NSD1095 is one if the best 1" CD and the XT120 is one of the best horn for that type of tweeters and size. I say try it! If you don't like how it sounds, you can sell the NSD easily, I bet.
Moreover there is a new 1" CD from 18sound, the ND1TP, here tested with the XT120 (although, it's in a lower position in the line-up and cheaper than the NSD):
https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-eighteen-sound-nd1tp-compression-driver-and-xt120-horn
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I have an odd combination of passive crossover + DSP. Some response issues can be corrected, but I like to get the speakers somewhere near "right" with just passive components.
The woofers are approximately 20dB less sensitive than the tweeter, so there's lots of room for response correction.
Chris
The woofers are approximately 20dB less sensitive than the tweeter, so there's lots of room for response correction.
Chris
Thinking about gain structure one might want to ultimately to remove +gain in the analog path as opposed to do a lot of digital attenuation - A DAC is (often) at its best at near 0 dBfs - no? E.g. many class D amps use a pre-stage with a gain of appr. 10-15 dB to reach typically 27 dB amp gain.. one could start to remove this if the exposed impedance is not to low for the proceeding node.
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Of course, often around 0dBfs the best but the same is true to active analogue attenuation and which is better, depends on the actual design:
Anyway, I am using passive, speaker level attenuation for a CD+horn on a DSP based crossover system (like the OP) and liking the result, although it was not bad without passive attenuation but some noise was evident bacause of the very high sensitivity driver.
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You're talking about running down to 1kHz. You won't do that nicely with the NSD's. The suggested xover is 1600.
https://www.eighteensound.it/en/products/hf-driver/1-0/8/NSD1095N
What the OP wants to do isn't what this driver was designed to do regardless of the environment it plays in.
Bollocks. Chris is going to use it domestically and the limitation of LF BW is determined by the excursion so the diaphragm doesn't hit the phase plug. At lower levels you can play a CD much lower in frequency before running into that issue. 18Sound set their specs based upon the market they designed it for, sound reinforcement and the SPL that involves, not hifi. Might be worth understanding how they work before commenting on it again.