What about every version of a poor mans m2? The subwoofer is likely the poster child of DIY beating manufactured, bang for buck.
I chose the Piccolo based on the write up by the designer, Jeff Bagby, on the Meniscus Audio website. Below is a link to the entire write up, but I'll include a few of the highlights here so someone can get a quick view without having to read it all.
"Loudspeaker designers will tell you that it is not that hard to design an incredible speaker using the finest components, but it is much more difficult when you are limited to much less costly components. However, that may not be the case here. The new line of SB Acoustics drivers are true exceptions to the rule. They offer an extremely high level of performance and construction for the price. Given the law of diminishing returns there is no reason why kits using these drivers couldn’t approach the performance of systems costing many times their price."
"The woofer selected is the SB Acoustics SB15NRX30-08-UC. Despite the reasonable cost, this is a very well made driver, and is competitive with drivers costing 4-5 times as much."
"The tweeter is the SB29RDCN-004 ring tweeter with neo magnet. It is extremely linear and, like the woofer, has very low distortion in its operating range. This tweeter is already developing quite a following and is used in some very high end commercial speaker systems."
"The crossover brings these two drivers together with a level of coherence not normally found at this price point and even in some much more expensive speaker systems. The crossover has been optimized in both the frequency and phase domains at the same time. The frequency response is exceptionally flat from 100Hz up. And the two drivers track each other in relative acoustic phase, not just in the crossover region, but over a very wide bandwidth, with excellent phase tracking from 100 Hz to 5 kHz. The crossover point is at 2.1kHz. The combination of this type of in-phase crossover and the low crossover point provides a very wide and smooth off-axis response with no exaggerated off-axis “bloom” in the tweeter’s response just above the crossover point like many small speakers with higher crossover points exhibit. And this translates into a smooth power response in most listening environments. The flat on-axis response and smooth power response helps this speaker disappear with extremely precise imaging."
"Sitting on a pair of quality stands a pair of these small speakers would satisfy the majority of music lovers on 95% of the music they play. What they give up in ultimate output level, they more than make up for in a pinpoint imaging, open soundstage, realistic scale, and overall coherence. This is a small speaker designed to deliver the highest level of performance at entry level prices. In fact, it is a very high level of construction and performance competitive with the finest small speakers at any price. You are just able to have this performance at entry level prices."
"Over the holidays I had a couple of guys over - Ben Shafer (Wolf) and Rory Buzka, and we listened to several speakers and discovered some new music that each other brought. It had been a while since I had listened to the vented Piccolos, and this was probably the first extended listening session with them since venting them with the ports. All of us, including me, were blown away by these little speakers. They possessed a sense of acoustic scaling that far exceeded their size. They are extremely flat from the upper bass on up, but with the ports have a little bump in the mid-upper bass range and then extend down to about 50Hz before rolling off. This is exceptional for such a small speaker. Even though I was only powering them with a 75 Watt Receiver and never really pushed them, they seemed to fill the room with very impressive sound, and more bass than they had any right to. The bass seemed full and deep and Rory kept going over to confirm that the subwoofer was indeed turned off. The little speaker played much bigger than they actually are, and we all felt that these would satisfy 95% of the people out there all by themselves."
"These are really a top-of-the-line mini-speaker: Excellent low distortion drivers, low crossover point, near perfect phase tracking, flat response, stable impedance, great bass extension, a solid cabinet - I would put them up against anything in their size range at any price."
(I added the bold font in order to emphasis certain points. It is not there in the original write up.)
So as a DIY speaker builder you have a choice with regard to whose design to use. I believe that Jeff was one of the best designers to have ever contributed to this activity. And you can choose to believe his comments or not. I chose to believe them and have been rewarded with a performance that truly matches his claims.
http://meniscus.lightningbasehosted.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Piccolo-Write-up.pdf
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Well, you surely can design, build and tune to your liking (it is an essence of DIY after all ) but it won't be a SFGH. It doesn't mean you wouldn't end up with a speaker you like more than SFGH (providing that you would have SFGH in your room to compare as you go). Also it doesn't mean that thousands (or even 10 ) people who bought SFGH would agree with you on the virtues of your speaker. Making a successful copy of an audio product is a tricky business.
For me , half of the Sonus Faber value is the look. Maybe more than a half and I'm saving my pennies to get a pair although I need another pair of boxes like a hole in my head. To me DIY makes sense when no commercial product exist at sane price or there is a vintage (or not) driver I love and would like to use. Monkey coffins designs are tones upon tones on used market so where is the sense of creating another box which will play in the same class as 10 thousand other boxes? Horns, open baffles, fullrangers and other esoterics are where DIY is almost the only way to go and it is a noble way indeed.
Not all horns need a heavy EQ to work. In my response to Joe presenting his custom horn system I jokingly described Edgar Horn system which represents pretty high level all things being equal. The crossover consist of a single coil on midbass horn ,capacitor with an Lpad on a midhorn and the same filter on the tweeter.
DIY provides the same exceptional value proposition for every type of speaker. The specific configuration doesn't matter. It provides just as much cost savings for 2-way, 3-way, and others types as it does for the ones shown. There is no reason to make a distinction regarding the cost advantages of DIY as a function of speaker type.
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Right , so many speakers , so little time😁
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This might be considered a moot point as far as this thread is concerned, when you consider the way a DIYer could spend a little extra time to make some less expensive drivers behave like any other.
The total cost for all four drivers, two tweeters and two midranges, is only $246. It was even a little less when Jeff designed these about 5 or 6 years ago. Thats not much money to spend on quality drivers. Particularly drivers with the outstanding sound quality of these. I just don't see the point in even attempting to use cheaper drivers. And whether you can really make less expensive drivers sound as good as these is a very big question. So, no. This is not a moot point at all. It is one the major benefits of this design.
With regard to polar measurements and what is the best design method, I have no comment. I can only say Jeff was very knowledgeable and whatever method he used has resulted in a speaker with outstanding sound quality. It punches way above its cost level.
With regard to polar measurements and what is the best design method, I have no comment. I can only say Jeff was very knowledgeable and whatever method he used has resulted in a speaker with outstanding sound quality. It punches way above its cost level.
I know that many expensive hifi speakers are easy to recreate for much less if you got access to the drivers. A perfect example is the Devore Ourang outang o/96 that is very popular and costs € 14,600.00. The tweeter is a Morel CAT 378, the woofer an Seas AR26R4, the cabinet is a reflex with a very simple crossover very similar like the A26 kit from seas (where it's a reflex variation of). I can build a clonse for less than 1K (not counting hours), and i actually want to make a better version of it with a diffierent tweeter that will cost probally the same because it does not measure that good i think, and i heared it in a home of someone and it did not sound that good neighter.
But it's true that some designs are vey hard to clone, mostly because you can't get parts like drivers. Some because they are real innovative in many levels (like the Kii). But most are not that special.
But it's true that some designs are vey hard to clone, mostly because you can't get parts like drivers. Some because they are real innovative in many levels (like the Kii). But most are not that special.
Hmm, the Orangutangs seem to be made by marketing people. Just try avoid marketing trap and try to look for stuff that relates to Tooles work for example, like addressing baffle edge diffraction and directivity. 1" and 8" drivers on wide baffle without roundovers whatsoever is exact opposite. No matter what the marketing talk says it is not too hard to figure out whats wrong with the sound. And this is why there is no measured data available most of the time, except perhaps something that doesn't tell anything about the sound.
It is very hansom speaker and worth buying / building for the looks. But that doesn't mean the sound is good. Usually there are compromises between the looks and sound, anyone whos really thinking loudspeaker systems from sound perspective know this. One should be very aware of possible compromises for looks over sound if one is looking for good sound
Never heard the Orangutangs, I suspect it is just another two way speaker thats different than the others by someway but not any "better".
edit. Cheez, its 10" woofer?:O
It is very hansom speaker and worth buying / building for the looks. But that doesn't mean the sound is good. Usually there are compromises between the looks and sound, anyone whos really thinking loudspeaker systems from sound perspective know this. One should be very aware of possible compromises for looks over sound if one is looking for good sound
Never heard the Orangutangs, I suspect it is just another two way speaker thats different than the others by someway but not any "better".edit. Cheez, its 10" woofer?:O
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I know the A26 sounds good, but it uses a different tweeter that is much better than that Morel. The Seas woofer is a classic and sound good, that is not the issue, it's the tweeter and the crossover that sucks in the O/96
https://www.stereophile.com/content/devore-fidelity-orangutan-o96-loudspeaker-measurements
I will have to take your word for it that this speaker is "Very popular". I must say though that there seem to be a number of simple largish, high efficiency two way designs aimed at the low power valve amp user. The fact that tests show that this is not in fact very high efficiency, and that it's in room response is poor is a moot point I suppose. As with other speakers how a person is prepared to pay $12,000 for it is beyond me. I do though see it as an anomaly, just like some would pay thousands for little black, stinky fish eggs, to eat on tiny bits of toast, or tens of thousands for fancy golden bottled sparkling white wine. My aim is to build a speaker that in itself is of better performance than that I can reasonably buy after due research, be it new or secondhand. I do agree that it would seem straightforward to home build a similar if not better speaker at 10% to 15% of the cost.
I will have to take your word for it that this speaker is "Very popular". I must say though that there seem to be a number of simple largish, high efficiency two way designs aimed at the low power valve amp user. The fact that tests show that this is not in fact very high efficiency, and that it's in room response is poor is a moot point I suppose. As with other speakers how a person is prepared to pay $12,000 for it is beyond me. I do though see it as an anomaly, just like some would pay thousands for little black, stinky fish eggs, to eat on tiny bits of toast, or tens of thousands for fancy golden bottled sparkling white wine. My aim is to build a speaker that in itself is of better performance than that I can reasonably buy after due research, be it new or secondhand. I do agree that it would seem straightforward to home build a similar if not better speaker at 10% to 15% of the cost.
Speakers don't sell by sounding good. Period. Even in the pro market you see a lot of mysticism about transducers (microphones too, yes). As such, the topic is quite pointless, apart from the social aspect.Hmm, the Orangutangs seem to be made by marketing people. Just try avoid marketing trap and try to look for stuff that relates to Tooles work for example, like addressing baffle edge diffraction and directivity. 1" and 8" drivers on wide baffle without roundovers whatsoever is exact opposite. No matter what the marketing talk says it is not too hard to figure out whats wrong with the sound. And this is why there is no measured data available most of the time, except perhaps something that doesn't tell anything about the sound.
It is very hansom speaker and worth buying / building for the looks. But that doesn't mean the sound is good. Usually there are compromises between the looks and sound, anyone whos really thinking loudspeaker systems from sound perspective know this. One should be very aware of possible compromises for looks over sound if one is looking for good sound
edit. Cheez, its 10" woofer?:O
Yeah, except there are also the good products in between that don't have premium in the price and might be rather boring looks but good design otherwise. It is just matter of identifying what one is looking for and not fall into marketing. Products have to sell in order to stay in business and if some product sells it only means it has got good marketing. Perhaps there are some disruptive products that are just better and cheaper than anything before, but other than that it is mainly the marketing that makes the sale.
It is surprising how good mass produced cheap pa speakers sound for example, would win many "auhiophile" stuff hands down but are just boring black plastic boxes with active electronics. Can't connect the tube amp or the latest Topping on it so it can't be any good can it? What, no transmission line and big red caps and KillWitch slopes in the crossover? Marketing is everywhere and it is quite hard to see that after all we look for good sound no matter what the technology behind is. That's why people think "i want this and that" instead of "what makes good sound? what is good sound? how do I apply it to my situation?". Curiosity is suppressed by marketing, which is precisely what is needed to Sell Stufffff. Bunch of zombies politely called "consumers".
It is surprising how good mass produced cheap pa speakers sound for example, would win many "auhiophile" stuff hands down but are just boring black plastic boxes with active electronics. Can't connect the tube amp or the latest Topping on it so it can't be any good can it? What, no transmission line and big red caps and KillWitch slopes in the crossover?
Marketing is everywhere and it is quite hard to see that after all we look for good sound no matter what the technology behind is. That's why people think "i want this and that" instead of "what makes good sound? what is good sound? how do I apply it to my situation?". Curiosity is suppressed by marketing, which is precisely what is needed to Sell Stufffff. Bunch of zombies politely called "consumers".
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Regarding the question "Expensive speaker DIY projects on the internet - wrong road?": It is insane to spend 10 kEUR for such internet DIY speaker kit!
Also, if you listened such 10 kEUR kit and liked it, it is insane to buy such a kit, - either you are deaf, or you didn't have an opportunity to listen a good 2 kEUR (or 6 kEUR) speaker, commercial or DIY.
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The opinions here are a bit too extreme. I spent in total on about $5.5K USD on the speaker kit Nao Note by John K (Everything inclusive of carpentry) and it still beats majority of the speakers at Hifi shows. There are good expensive kits - just need to do your research thoroughly. This was 10 years ago before the bang for the buck Philiharmonic Towers appeared...
Could you please elaborate how you were able to foresee your satisfaction beforehand? - Ability to play desired spl levels based on excursion in combination with low/high frequency extension into the extremes of desired bandwidth. All of that in retrospect of listening distance and room size. Following the basic rules to proper building.
I see a point thats not being made. Sound quality is has effected much more by the amount of excursion you allow during playback, than it is, how much you spent on a particular driver. Designing for proper xovers and off axis polar is a matter of proper application not a matter of money spent........ so what are you actually paying for? Proper building technique....thats it....you are paying for someone to not fk up your loudspeaker before they sell it to you....the price paid for someone else to do it for you is always going to be more....but when you factor in the time its not going to add up the same...yet people still learn to be cooks everyday though they could constantly pay someone else. A good design is like a recipe....once you learn how to cook well....you can come up with recipes pretty easy. What type of person says I'm not going to learn to cook when I can pay someone else to do it....or maybe a more realistic answer question; why should I cook, when I can afford for someone to do it for me. If the deal makes sense, I'm going to pull the trigger....jbl, genelec, nueman,insert your likeable manufacturer here all have some winning recipes on the menu. In particular if I don't feel like taking the time to do it myself....in particular if I have no passion for cooking and science in the first place (hint hint)
You might have to reach a certain price point, but I'm, pretty sure a poor mans m2 cost less than the real deal and there are plenty of examples to follow that one could skip mastering the science and just follow someone elses recipe.
I'm not sure how the recent change in wood prices affects this analogy lol.
I see a point thats not being made. Sound quality is has effected much more by the amount of excursion you allow during playback, than it is, how much you spent on a particular driver. Designing for proper xovers and off axis polar is a matter of proper application not a matter of money spent........ so what are you actually paying for? Proper building technique....thats it....you are paying for someone to not fk up your loudspeaker before they sell it to you....the price paid for someone else to do it for you is always going to be more....but when you factor in the time its not going to add up the same...yet people still learn to be cooks everyday though they could constantly pay someone else. A good design is like a recipe....once you learn how to cook well....you can come up with recipes pretty easy. What type of person says I'm not going to learn to cook when I can pay someone else to do it....or maybe a more realistic answer question; why should I cook, when I can afford for someone to do it for me. If the deal makes sense, I'm going to pull the trigger....jbl, genelec, nueman,insert your likeable manufacturer here all have some winning recipes on the menu. In particular if I don't feel like taking the time to do it myself....in particular if I have no passion for cooking and science in the first place (hint hint)
You might have to reach a certain price point, but I'm, pretty sure a poor mans m2 cost less than the real deal and there are plenty of examples to follow that one could skip mastering the science and just follow someone elses recipe.
I'm not sure how the recent change in wood prices affects this analogy lol.
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