I have the opportunity to get a Parasound HCA 2200ii but won't have the chance to listen to it first. I love vintage gear so this doesnt seem very old to me, but doing research it seems like most threads are about some kind of problem.
I would be replacing a Yamaha MX600 which has ran flawlessly. I know anything can have the potential to have problems, but some products are prone to it and some are not.
Thoughts? Experiences? Are there certain things that always go bad on this amp that I should just expect to fix?
Thanks!
I would be replacing a Yamaha MX600 which has ran flawlessly. I know anything can have the potential to have problems, but some products are prone to it and some are not.
Thoughts? Experiences? Are there certain things that always go bad on this amp that I should just expect to fix?
Thanks!
+20 year TLC interval
A great amp... as with all amps of its age, I would
*expect* that it would respond well to some TLC.
I am with rayma, the caps are *the expendables*,
replacing them also prolongs the life of all gear.
A very close friend has one (using my Hafler 600 now)
we are plotting the re-working his HCA2200ii, it is
pretty tightly packed, I am reasoning the steps.
A great amp... as with all amps of its age, I would
*expect* that it would respond well to some TLC.
I am with rayma, the caps are *the expendables*,
replacing them also prolongs the life of all gear.
A very close friend has one (using my Hafler 600 now)
we are plotting the re-working his HCA2200ii, it is
pretty tightly packed, I am reasoning the steps.
I doubt you will notice an improvement in sound or power, the HCA might feel like is has a little more control of speakers, it also might look better on your shelf depending on your aesthetic. I have never believed in preemptive capping…following the ‘don’t cap till it sounds like crap’ school of thought
It will need re-capping. All electrolytics. It will be worth it as it was a great amp. I wish I had my old stack of them as my new 2124 is no where near the sonic quality.
Electrolytics only last 7 to 10 years at most even in the best conditions. They degrade slowly so many don't understand how poorly they are working so don't know what they are missing. For those who don't believe me, I suggest putting it on the bench and run a pass with RightMArk and see the noise. This is physics, not magic. Wishful thinking does not change the laws of physics.
Electrolytics only last 7 to 10 years at most even in the best conditions. They degrade slowly so many don't understand how poorly they are working so don't know what they are missing. For those who don't believe me, I suggest putting it on the bench and run a pass with RightMArk and see the noise. This is physics, not magic. Wishful thinking does not change the laws of physics.
I love the look of the MX600, it has big red 80's bar meters that remind me of Knight Rider! Lol
So you dont think the Parasound will be different enough sonically to make a difference in sound quality?
Caps - like tires, wear out over time
Thank you for saying this!
People DO NOT GET IT, tired old caps (even IF tested "good") might power an amp, but will never deliver optimum sound. I have said it so many times... it is like a springs with no bounce. As with vacuum tubes, the wear *typically* is slow and unnoticeable.
Frankly, I do not care if a person lives with / loves their tired old soft sounding component [when compared to new or rebuilt] I have rebuilt so many (vintage) tuners, receivers, integrated amps, pre-amps and amps... All respond dramatically so...
AS tvrgeek said, it is in the science. And some can very CLEARLY hear it.
And are willing to pay for it, time and money.
Thank you for saying this!
People DO NOT GET IT, tired old caps (even IF tested "good") might power an amp, but will never deliver optimum sound. I have said it so many times... it is like a springs with no bounce. As with vacuum tubes, the wear *typically* is slow and unnoticeable.
Frankly, I do not care if a person lives with / loves their tired old soft sounding component [when compared to new or rebuilt] I have rebuilt so many (vintage) tuners, receivers, integrated amps, pre-amps and amps... All respond dramatically so...
AS tvrgeek said, it is in the science. And some can very CLEARLY hear it.
And are willing to pay for it, time and money.
You have any normal shop do it, you'll likely get a fleet of 1000 hour service life caps. The cheapest available. When I was using TV parts shop caps, my amp needed new caps every 6-8 years.
Do it yourself, you can buy 3000 to 14000 hour service life caps. Better rubber seals, bigger cans with more water in them. Cost 25 to 40% more than the ever popular cheapest caps made. Even respected brands like panasonic, nichicon, rubicon, vishay sell 1000 hour caps for those that want them. Some distributors like alliedelec stock nothing else but the cheap ones.
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well said
I do (all of) the work on my cars, electronics, appliances, my home, my yard, etc.
*you get the point.
"others" GOOD ENOUGH is seldom (my) good enough.
good enough does not equal done right...
I do (all of) the work on my cars, electronics, appliances, my home, my yard, etc.
*you get the point.
"others" GOOD ENOUGH is seldom (my) good enough.
good enough does not equal done right...
Oh no I’ve offended the cap lords again, the 50 year old oil cans in my 300a disagree with your cap ‘science’. Please share your scientific studies of 7-10 year cap degradation, then the science which explains how they still need replacing when they sound and test fine. What about 45 year old caps with no hours, are they bad too? The ‘science’ of caps is mostly subjective opinion, are they working? (Check) Are they in spec? (Check)
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I was told to change caps by the MacIntosh salesman in 1970. He told me my 35 w/ch amp was putting out 7 watts/ch. HD was 10%.
P=(V^2)/Z where z is speaker impedance. z=4/3*speaker resistance roughly. When that amp started sounding polite again after 8 years, I would measure AC voltage out on speaker with an analog VOM. Usually B+ cap, but also rectifier tube about every other time. When the idle current wouldn't adjust to right value, new - supply cap was required. About every 8 years. Got **** grade e-caps at the TV-parts store.
I've measured an Allen 100 W amp (SS) at 2 watts, the Monday after it went silent in a church service. New rail caps upped it to 25 watts. New every e-cap took it back to 100 w.
The watts out test is cheaper than pulling the main caps and measuring ESR. However odd sound can be coupler or bypass caps in the sound chain differentially blocking lows either to ground or from the next stage.
I have had 30 year old amps with a bad solder joint, have entirely good caps. Squeaky clean MMA-875t probably had never been used more than a few weeks due to a bad solder joint. Peavey bought caps that lasted 10-20 years in heavy use, better than most consumer products. CS800s went dead 18 months after I bought it. 5 v control power cap in switcher supply had shorted, blown a 125 ma fuse. Replaced mains caps in that while open. Used that one 6-10 hours daily until it was stolen last September.
Repaired an Allen organ switcher supply for a friend on organforum. AC filter cap had shorted, taken out a NTCR they used instead of a fuse. All new caps got that one going again.
And my 1968 Hammond H182 organ sounded like a wet kazoo when I bought it. New cathode bypass caps in the power amp and B+ caps got the wattage up to 13 and 70 per spec. Cathode caps were tantalum, all nearly shorted. Still sounded awful. 30 new caps in the preamp area got the frequency response back to standard. Took more caps in the preamp & power supply to make the attack function and the pedal sustain functions work. Were small tantalum caps in the attack chassis, all shorted. 98 caps total. I haven't done the 108 key sustain caps yet. I don't respect that function.
I had an Apex HDTV converter from Wal-Mart have wavy lines in the picture that would go away after 5 minutes. Wal-Mart always finds a bargain. The converter I bought from K-mart for $5 more was fine.
I had a Farnell sourced HDTV converter quit producing picture & sound after 7 years. Stellar Labs. I replaced the low ESR switcher supply cap and a few of the 22 & 47 uf caps out near the processing IC's. Worked again for 2 more years before the burglar took it. Don't need expensive instruments to see that there is no picture.
P=(V^2)/Z where z is speaker impedance. z=4/3*speaker resistance roughly. When that amp started sounding polite again after 8 years, I would measure AC voltage out on speaker with an analog VOM. Usually B+ cap, but also rectifier tube about every other time. When the idle current wouldn't adjust to right value, new - supply cap was required. About every 8 years. Got **** grade e-caps at the TV-parts store.
I've measured an Allen 100 W amp (SS) at 2 watts, the Monday after it went silent in a church service. New rail caps upped it to 25 watts. New every e-cap took it back to 100 w.
The watts out test is cheaper than pulling the main caps and measuring ESR. However odd sound can be coupler or bypass caps in the sound chain differentially blocking lows either to ground or from the next stage.
I have had 30 year old amps with a bad solder joint, have entirely good caps. Squeaky clean MMA-875t probably had never been used more than a few weeks due to a bad solder joint. Peavey bought caps that lasted 10-20 years in heavy use, better than most consumer products. CS800s went dead 18 months after I bought it. 5 v control power cap in switcher supply had shorted, blown a 125 ma fuse. Replaced mains caps in that while open. Used that one 6-10 hours daily until it was stolen last September.
Repaired an Allen organ switcher supply for a friend on organforum. AC filter cap had shorted, taken out a NTCR they used instead of a fuse. All new caps got that one going again.
And my 1968 Hammond H182 organ sounded like a wet kazoo when I bought it. New cathode bypass caps in the power amp and B+ caps got the wattage up to 13 and 70 per spec. Cathode caps were tantalum, all nearly shorted. Still sounded awful. 30 new caps in the preamp area got the frequency response back to standard. Took more caps in the preamp & power supply to make the attack function and the pedal sustain functions work. Were small tantalum caps in the attack chassis, all shorted. 98 caps total. I haven't done the 108 key sustain caps yet. I don't respect that function.
I had an Apex HDTV converter from Wal-Mart have wavy lines in the picture that would go away after 5 minutes. Wal-Mart always finds a bargain. The converter I bought from K-mart for $5 more was fine.
I had a Farnell sourced HDTV converter quit producing picture & sound after 7 years. Stellar Labs. I replaced the low ESR switcher supply cap and a few of the 22 & 47 uf caps out near the processing IC's. Worked again for 2 more years before the burglar took it. Don't need expensive instruments to see that there is no picture.
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Indianajo, these are repair items my point was I don’t veiw caps as maintenance (something you replace at X years with XXX miles) they are repair. At 10%hd the Mac most likely sounded like crap and needed repairs on a frequent schedule. I think it’s presumptive and often erroneous to advise recapping based on age alone.
As far as Parasound amps go, they are solid, once the caps are replaced. Most come with Rubycon caps that tend to fail after so many years from what I have seen. I think the hca-3500 may have used more Nichicon parts however, but I haven’t seen many of those.
There are also some parts that can be replaced for better sound at the same time (servo op amps, servo capacitors, power supply bypass caps.
We have an hca-1000a that’s been in constant use for 5 years now.
There are also some parts that can be replaced for better sound at the same time (servo op amps, servo capacitors, power supply bypass caps.
We have an hca-1000a that’s been in constant use for 5 years now.
ALL electrolytic caps start to dry out the day they were made. The better ones as mentioned above not as quickly as cheap ones. Even how they were stored can kill them. We had some that spent the summer on the top bay in a warehouse that were bad from day one. Also watch out for counterfeits. It may be a lot more money, but better to buy from folks like Mouser or Allied who have better control over the source. Not E-bay.
Not water, but a rather toxic oil BTW.
Not water, but a rather toxic oil BTW.
slow degradation over time (regardless of use)
~ e x a c t l y ~ as with rubber compound(s) in ALL tires...
Regardless of tread depth, or the actual age of the tire,
they become cross-linked, UNABLE TO GRIP or
track "transients", whether music or asphalt...
as a crossed example.
I cannot speak for others... I "can .clearly. hear it",
with reference grade components (in use).
I can also feel it in road grip, performance attributes
of a highly tuned performance (my dream) vehicle.
and ~ as a driver ~ lover of fine automobiles.
Sadly, *the best* road grip tires, are soft and do
wear out quickly, doing their job... <10K on the
Michelin P/S tires. I digress, though it applies.
They cost waaaay more than caps 🙁
Be it, performance cars or performance amps, even
these quality components suffer great(er) burdens,
.should be. "expected' to "fail" to be replaced
at some point, over the life of said device(s)
Absolutely related to performance tuning / amp builds
I have started using Mundorf MLytic HC, which are
~ very expensive, high temperature / long life parts ~
which will clearly outlive me. They sound GREAT!
The HCA-2200 is a great amp, I dare say "legacy"
amp, for its era, price, power and performance.
I cannot wait to rebuild my friends...
~ e x a c t l y ~ as with rubber compound(s) in ALL tires...
Regardless of tread depth, or the actual age of the tire,
they become cross-linked, UNABLE TO GRIP or
track "transients", whether music or asphalt...
as a crossed example.
I cannot speak for others... I "can .clearly. hear it",
with reference grade components (in use).
I can also feel it in road grip, performance attributes
of a highly tuned performance (my dream) vehicle.
and ~ as a driver ~ lover of fine automobiles.
Sadly, *the best* road grip tires, are soft and do
wear out quickly, doing their job... <10K on the
Michelin P/S tires. I digress, though it applies.
They cost waaaay more than caps 🙁
Be it, performance cars or performance amps, even
these quality components suffer great(er) burdens,
.should be. "expected' to "fail" to be replaced
at some point, over the life of said device(s)
Absolutely related to performance tuning / amp builds
I have started using Mundorf MLytic HC, which are
~ very expensive, high temperature / long life parts ~
which will clearly outlive me. They sound GREAT!
The HCA-2200 is a great amp, I dare say "legacy"
amp, for its era, price, power and performance.
I cannot wait to rebuild my friends...
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I'll keep my Conti's. 🙂 Mot autocross grip, but on my GTI, well balanced and predictable.
A 2200 Mk II, brought back to new condition will also be a well balanced unit. John Curl admitted it was still his favorite design. The other vintage amp I always wanted was the Nak Stasis. I remember the Aragon impressed me as well.
As I can't afford a new Hegel power amp and don't like my 2125, I'll go looking for the caps suggested to re-cap my old own design MOSFET amp. How are they compared to the new concept of a dozen or so smaller caps?
Bingo!
Mundorf M-Lytic HC (MLHC) 2-Pole Electrolytic Capacitors. Far cheaper than $3300 for a new amp.
Hmmm, small ones for my old Nak PA-5, and Creek!
A 2200 Mk II, brought back to new condition will also be a well balanced unit. John Curl admitted it was still his favorite design. The other vintage amp I always wanted was the Nak Stasis. I remember the Aragon impressed me as well.
As I can't afford a new Hegel power amp and don't like my 2125, I'll go looking for the caps suggested to re-cap my old own design MOSFET amp. How are they compared to the new concept of a dozen or so smaller caps?
Bingo!
Mundorf M-Lytic HC (MLHC) 2-Pole Electrolytic Capacitors. Far cheaper than $3300 for a new amp.
Hmmm, small ones for my old Nak PA-5, and Creek!
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What do you think would be the best caps to use? Does anything besides the big main caps dry out or is everything else okay as long as it's in spec?
Mentions of Munforf (as an example)
I believe the Mundorf MLytic HC (above the MLytic AG) are
a new paradigm in capacitor technology, glad I tried them.
Mundorf "LOCO caps" are much bigger (a little challenging)
*I'm not recommending them in traditional factory built amps.
Too strange of proportions... hard to fit in chassis.
My earlier W209 slid all over the road with OEM *Contis,
ESP always went bonkers... (*a very good product)
There IS something special about the 2200 amp. I do get it.
*want to "dig through it" see what it is all about. cant wait.
Always have "marveled" Aragon, a buddy, Levinson dealer,
introduced me to the line... years ago. Very good stuff,
though I can build "better" MOSFET based amps,
all are mono to get all the parts to fit...
*Better* suited to my interests.
There are no caps that *compare with the Mundorf LOCOs.
Having designed and built one pair of mono block amps,
as proof of concept. I now have (6) LOCO mono-blocks.
compared to: Jensen 4 pole, Nichicon LNT or NCC.
I believe the Mundorf MLytic HC (above the MLytic AG) are
a new paradigm in capacitor technology, glad I tried them.
Mundorf "LOCO caps" are much bigger (a little challenging)
*I'm not recommending them in traditional factory built amps.
Too strange of proportions... hard to fit in chassis.
My earlier W209 slid all over the road with OEM *Contis,
ESP always went bonkers... (*a very good product)
There IS something special about the 2200 amp. I do get it.
*want to "dig through it" see what it is all about. cant wait.
Always have "marveled" Aragon, a buddy, Levinson dealer,
introduced me to the line... years ago. Very good stuff,
though I can build "better" MOSFET based amps,
all are mono to get all the parts to fit...
*Better* suited to my interests.
There are no caps that *compare with the Mundorf LOCOs.
Having designed and built one pair of mono block amps,
as proof of concept. I now have (6) LOCO mono-blocks.
compared to: Jensen 4 pole, Nichicon LNT or NCC.