Wow, that's selective reasoning. Does a xover exist between the 15 and the 2"? Yes? Then it's a multiway.
Trolling seems to be "big business" on the internet these days and it seems there's an actual art to it. Not a particularly respectable art, but an art nevertheless.
On more wide-ranging subject forums, I swear I've seen finely crafted presentations that were clearly designed to "fit the forum" they were deposited in.
They almost seem real, but they smell just too perfect a hand-in-glove fit and if you open to the idea, you realize it's all fiction, just to engender a response.
And they do, get them. Which must be "oddly satisfying" to the OP. I guess in the age of "likes" as a sort of currency, I can see how such efforts payoff.
I think in this forum, such is quickly recognized and the OP is either ignored, or eventually slaughtered. What's really amazing is when you see "well, that didnt work - I'll try again!". Maybe with a better prose, a week, month, year later.
OK great
This is what I consider solid open discussion of what is/is not *High* Fidelity.
IOW we all have good experience in speakers, designs, tweaks, mods.
hummm, lets see.
OK so if you hear my Full Range Davidlouis VX8 + DavidLouis W4,, you might say **eh,,I;'ve heard better,,I would not call your dual Full Range high fidelity..**
Great.
Thats OK
'I can accpt this review.
So you are a bit confsued why we Full Range fans are really Fan-Atics.
Mainly due to 2 things.
Higher sensitivity and the critical mids of the midrange has this seamless and coherent imagery.
And further we fan-atics know a tiny voice coil of a tweeter has serious issues voicing the lower mids say 2khz-3khz.
At least not as high fidelity as our chosen Full Range in same fq band width.
+ we fan-atics know a midwoofer is attempting to do 2 things at the same time
carry deep bass, say 40hz-200hz and carry lower midrange say up to 2khz.
Where we hear a better performance in the 1khz-2khz in our Full Range
= Less resonances.
Why is this?
Our Full Range have a UNIQUE cone material, either wood or bamboo fiber.
making resonances nearly falt to zero = no coloration.
Now I know seas has 2 DEDICATED midrange drivers
ChW15001 and CHW15002
But when i considered either fora 3 way xover type, my tech only said **You gotta be joking** It was at that point I totally dumped all my ideas about a 3 way with dedicated midrange and went 100% in for Full Range.
And am I glad I did
Are these 2 DavidLouis *high fidelity*
Thats completely subjective.
No one can say high or mid.
Only the listener can say for sure if a speaker fits his conception of what is High and what is Low.
Yes I am conceding some of my previous attitudes.
As I am not reallya tech geek as most of you are.
So I can not make blanket dogmatic opinions.
lastly
If you look at a classical instrument fq range chart/human voice.
Note where they all cross most thick.
Not sure, as I have no chart in front of me but its at that range where our Full Range speakers shine most.
Where a xover 2 or 3 way is dealing with midwoofer taking one part and midtweeter voicing the rest.
This xover image/soundstage won't work for me any longer.
The issues ina xover/multi style speaker is just too much for me to deal with.
My classical music is important and I want it fully voiced not chaeted on some loss of the notes.
I absolutely must have
Higher sensitivity
Seamless midrange
Low coloration
Low resonances.
Which for my needs makesa Full range the ideal choice.
Actually the most perfect choice.
WEll yes and no
My speaker does employ xover multi drivers.
But these only play a MINOR supporting role.
The W18E001's are 87db
They offer no bang, just a hush.
The tweeers I agree offer a much need ambience for Full Range
A single Full range although the Star of the show, the true Tenor and Soprano, is not the whole cast.
Full Range as Front and Center but not all by itself.
Multi yes but with the least amount of xover components.
A speaker w/o at least 1 Full Range driver some how is cheating the musical image.
My testings prove this that a duo Full Range beats a single Full Range.
I could live wth a single FR vs all other xover type such as Wilson, Dali, and many others in the multi K price range.
Its the super critcal 2khz-3khz that I need with a seamless image + higher sensivity in all other mid band fq;s.
For me midrange is everything.
OK but what is the xover point for the massive 15 inch woofer and the 2 inch horn?
If say below 500hz, then its reallya Fill Range horn with woofer assist.
Here is a link that I like alot
Note what it say
the below 120hz IF TOO MUCH warmth = muddyness. haha. how many woofers out there have we heard as murddy,greyish, fatiguing.
Too many.
Which is why I can only accept magnesius as W assist, For its non murky voicing, very damp clean/clear upper bass/low mids, as Josh( Madisound) says of the EXCEL cone *very neutral*
Cello lowest notes 65hx
Violins highest registers 3500hz
I havea 8 uf cap on the paper cone double magnet wtter takes it from 5khz to rolloff, maybe 15khzish
tweeter with a 8uf cap is very much needed to bring in sheen and ambience.
Frequency Chart – Har-Bal | The Scientific Audio Mastering Solution
The OP purpose was to get folks aware that our music is mainly voiced in the mid band width.
And so as we all know Troels is constantly trying to figue where will he cross his 2 or 3 way drivers.
I never understood what all the fuss was about That is until I heard my 1st Full Range
A crappy Diatone 6.
But it was enough to comapre to the Seas Thors midrange to win me over to Full range as ideal choice for classical music.
This is what this topic is all about
That the midrange is super critical and that a high end Full range will always voice the midrange superior to a 2 or 3 way.
Due to all the factors and ,imitations I noted above.
The OP Q has still not been dealt with and so now is the time to get things out in the open.
And so as we all know Troels is constantly trying to figue where will he cross his 2 or 3 way drivers.
I never understood what all the fuss was about That is until I heard my 1st Full Range
A crappy Diatone 6.
But it was enough to comapre to the Seas Thors midrange to win me over to Full range as ideal choice for classical music.
This is what this topic is all about
That the midrange is super critical and that a high end Full range will always voice the midrange superior to a 2 or 3 way.
Due to all the factors and ,imitations I noted above.
The OP Q has still not been dealt with and so now is the time to get things out in the open.
So, multiways are only bad if they fail to meet your very narrow criteria. Gotcha.
So far I'm not seeing you have a particularly good grasp of speaker design.
What driver and flare are going to allow 300-20k on a 2" throat?
By your definition, my mains are FR as the 15's only play to 300Hz, then cross to a coentrant horn.
These WR drivers you claim are so resonance free, what brand and model are they? Are there published FR, Z, HD and CSD to back the claims up?
These are MF's claims. Other members, please let him answer them.
And nobody but you has been aware of this until now? The arrogance is amazing.
I couldn't care less and don't use his designs as a reference.
Ah, further narrowing of criteria. I can easily play, folk, jazz, rock, classical and Nine Inch Nails in the same session on the same system at wildly varying SPLs and I'm more than happy with the performance on all those genres. Some NIN at volume would I'm sure let the smoke out of your WRs.
Yet you tell us your reference system is actually a 3 way. No weaseling, no matter how you implement it, it's got 2 xovers, so it's a 3way.
Thank you, O wise one. Just so you're sure, that was sarcasm.
OK
so you have 1 heck ofa woofer there.
I'd like to go witha single 10 or 12, but since I have dual W18's as troels mentions dual 6's give one heck of a punch vs a single 8 or 10.
Anyhoot
So yeah you cross at 300hz
Now you have a **Coentrant horn**
Not sure what this is.
is this a dual horn system?
So basically you have a xoverless midrange.
Yes?
If so then I consider your system free of that mid xover point that ~~plagues~~ the xover multi speaker things.
So you need some specs on the DLVX8.
I can't read/understand specs. So i have no idea what all the specs really mean
What i ck ot is is
Cone materail
magnet structure/type/size/weight. I prefer N'D but will takea big hefty ferrite.
Its a wopping 95db sens.. I prefer 93/94db sens in Full range but I'm not going to complain as it voices nicely.
Has bass, clean mids, not too early high rolloff.
All in all a pretty good speaker.
Nearly identical to Tang bands 2145.
But I slightly prefer DLVX8's mids.
Here take a look let me know what you find
My guess its cloned on the Voxativ Wood cone speaker.
The Voxativ has 2x's the magnet weight.
But 10x's the price tag
Pair 2 unit DavidLouis wooden cone HiEND 8inch fullrange speaker 2020Ver | eBay
so you have 1 heck ofa woofer there.
I'd like to go witha single 10 or 12, but since I have dual W18's as troels mentions dual 6's give one heck of a punch vs a single 8 or 10.
Anyhoot
So yeah you cross at 300hz
Now you have a **Coentrant horn**
Not sure what this is.
is this a dual horn system?
So basically you have a xoverless midrange.
Yes?
If so then I consider your system free of that mid xover point that ~~plagues~~ the xover multi speaker things.
So you need some specs on the DLVX8.
I can't read/understand specs. So i have no idea what all the specs really mean
What i ck ot is is
Cone materail
magnet structure/type/size/weight. I prefer N'D but will takea big hefty ferrite.
Its a wopping 95db sens.. I prefer 93/94db sens in Full range but I'm not going to complain as it voices nicely.
Has bass, clean mids, not too early high rolloff.
All in all a pretty good speaker.
Nearly identical to Tang bands 2145.
But I slightly prefer DLVX8's mids.
Here take a look let me know what you find
My guess its cloned on the Voxativ Wood cone speaker.
The Voxativ has 2x's the magnet weight.
But 10x's the price tag
Pair 2 unit DavidLouis wooden cone HiEND 8inch fullrange speaker 2020Ver | eBay
Yet you tell us your reference system is actually a 3 way. No weaseling, no matter how you implement it, it's got 2 xovers, so it's a 3way.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well I did not know how to tag the system
WElla single filter cap at the tweeter I would not call a *xover* , Look at the Millennium xover has like 5 caps + 2 coils + resistors = paid like $300+ each xover.
The W18's hasa big fat coil + a resistor and the Mundof 10uf cap.
OK so its 3 way.
Got it.
If I have 3 Full Range + the Dula W18+ tweeter
I think this makes it what Adam (madisound) tags it a
real Frankenstein monster.
Our speakers potential are only limited by our neglect to the creative spirit.
and yes the DLVX8 is delicate and will flame up at high SPL levels.
For sure.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well I did not know how to tag the system
WElla single filter cap at the tweeter I would not call a *xover* , Look at the Millennium xover has like 5 caps + 2 coils + resistors = paid like $300+ each xover.
The W18's hasa big fat coil + a resistor and the Mundof 10uf cap.
OK so its 3 way.
Got it.
If I have 3 Full Range + the Dula W18+ tweeter
I think this makes it what Adam (madisound) tags it a
real Frankenstein monster.
Our speakers potential are only limited by our neglect to the creative spirit.
and yes the DLVX8 is delicate and will flame up at high SPL levels.
For sure.
But it is. The classic XO.
But more of an issue is the physical spacing of a tweeter and what goes below. You can almost never attain the magic quarter-wavelength spacing.
In a multiway both the XO and the physical spacing are compromises. Ignoring one for your argument…
dave
I'll respond to the previous post later if I have time.
The FR and Z curves are of insufficient quality to actually tell much from them.
You have a multiway with xovers, yet were happy to tag everyone else that had a 3way system as theirs was inferior.
Yep
Good
How are the drivers arranged on baffle? A pic would make it easier to determine what's going on.
And physics, acoustics and psychoacoustics.
Of that, I have no doubt.
The FR and Z curves are of insufficient quality to actually tell much from them.
And nobody but you has been aware of this until now? The arrogance is amazing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In no way was I implying that you guys do not know/are unaware of this.
Its something I thought about only in the past year or 2.
And my point being since midrange is where the majority of out music is voiced ,,,,then it only is reason to figure out what speaker/speaker design/system can manage this band width the *best*,
Midwoofers are wonderful in bass 40hz-200hz then we can safely count on midwoofers up to say 1800hz. After that,, I'm not so sure.
I ran the W18E001's w/o xover and they sounded just aweful, complete garbage.
So i know the W18 is good at least upto 1800hz, past that its ??
tweeters again, wonderful in treble and down to say maybe 3khzish. Under this I really do not wanta full sized sym orch all jamming away going through a tiny 28mm *pin hole* size VC.
Even a FR W4 even tang band's W31878 will beat a tweeter in the 2khz-3khz range
Larger VC and so larger voice cone area. = bigger/deeper soundstage.
Thsi was my point.
That a midwoofer and a midtweeter both have their limitations, regardless of what the specs CLAIM on the web site or on your testing equipment.
Test equipment/specs only tell 1/2 the story. How the driver actually voices in real time is really all that matters.
I found the Davidlouyis yellow cone 6 not to be up to the midrange quality (+ bass a
bit soft and highs too quick roll off) that i demand and expect from a FR driver. So off its going to a friend overseas = loss of $471.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In no way was I implying that you guys do not know/are unaware of this.
Its something I thought about only in the past year or 2.
And my point being since midrange is where the majority of out music is voiced ,,,,then it only is reason to figure out what speaker/speaker design/system can manage this band width the *best*,
Midwoofers are wonderful in bass 40hz-200hz then we can safely count on midwoofers up to say 1800hz. After that,, I'm not so sure.
I ran the W18E001's w/o xover and they sounded just aweful, complete garbage.
So i know the W18 is good at least upto 1800hz, past that its ??
tweeters again, wonderful in treble and down to say maybe 3khzish. Under this I really do not wanta full sized sym orch all jamming away going through a tiny 28mm *pin hole* size VC.
Even a FR W4 even tang band's W31878 will beat a tweeter in the 2khz-3khz range
Larger VC and so larger voice cone area. = bigger/deeper soundstage.
Thsi was my point.
That a midwoofer and a midtweeter both have their limitations, regardless of what the specs CLAIM on the web site or on your testing equipment.
Test equipment/specs only tell 1/2 the story. How the driver actually voices in real time is really all that matters.
I found the Davidlouyis yellow cone 6 not to be up to the midrange quality (+ bass a
bit soft and highs too quick roll off) that i demand and expect from a FR driver. So off its going to a friend overseas = loss of $471.
ahh Ok a classical simple xover
Got it thanks
The rest of your post is a bit over my tech reading skills.
If you want to add you can, if not Ok too.
Yes I prefera simple single cap which in my book is not really a complex xover thing.
Too many caps I interpret as a flaw in the driver, Ck out some of Troels xovers,,wow + he expects builder to employ his recommend caps the Jensen Z caps = $$$$ as much /more than my Mundorf caps
btw the Mundorf 10uf Silver supreme addeda nice bass kick to the dual W18's, Though some at Madisound believe a cap is a cap,
Not ture, In woofers a big bad high end cap will rended bass tight and deep,
In tweeters onlya miniscule gain. = not worth it. Lower end (relative to the SESGO M caps) EVO M caps is all thats needed on a tweeter.
SESGO did render the Millennium better but not worth the double price vs the EVO silver cap.
Here's a hint at what my Frankie system sounds like
Cheap sony cam quality is poor. At least you geta hint at what I have and further designs are on the table..stay tuned
music starts at 6:15
davidLouis 4 inch wide band,, Perfect - YouTube
Music starts at 1:35
DavidLouis VX8 + DavidLouis W4 with Defy7/Mundorf caps - YouTube
Cheap sony cam quality is poor. At least you geta hint at what I have and further designs are on the table..stay tuned
music starts at 6:15
davidLouis 4 inch wide band,, Perfect - YouTube
Music starts at 1:35
DavidLouis VX8 + DavidLouis W4 with Defy7/Mundorf caps - YouTube
Happy halloween everyone, because that is indeed a sound calculated to wake the dead. 
By the way -has this famous 'tech geek' of yours ever suggested it might be a good idea to fix the drivers to the cabinet with all four mounting points, rather than two? Particularly if the two in question are on the same side of the basket?
By the way -has this famous 'tech geek' of yours ever suggested it might be a good idea to fix the drivers to the cabinet with all four mounting points, rather than two? Particularly if the two in question are on the same side of the basket?
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For 2 drivers to behave as one and only ( what is known as acoustic coupling) their center to center distance should equal (or be lower that) 1/4 the wavelength at which frequency you plan to cross them.
eg: 343hz planed xover, one wavelength is equal to 1m, center to center ( ctc) distance should be 25cm or lower.
Your system description does makes you one of 'us' multiway users. 😉
So from what you presented i would rephrase your concern in the way i interpret them: you've got issue with some kind of xover, which is a valid concern about some technical aspect some kind of filters can bring ( classical implemented steeper one).
Scottmoose: was your wink pointed to me in your previous post?
Waking the dead... yes i admit i do this kind of things from time to time! 😀
Brett: 68lp! Nice axe.
Charles Darwin: i'm not fond of it neither. But loudspeakers usually brings some kind of distortions by themself, whatever we do to try limit them and are (typicaly) by far the most objectionable link in the chain regarding distortions.
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THIS. Every commercial speaker I've seen had basically a cookie cutter crossover. I reverse engineer everything I get my hands on, so I have an idea what the design engineer was (or wasn't) thinking.
I spent six months tweaking a humble 2 way second order crossover. More notch depth, less notch depth. More impedance correction, less impedance correction. Tiny changes to crossover frequency of one driver or another (which affects overlap) until the crossover frequency anomalies were mitigated. (I'm talking about adding or subtracting one or two inductor windings at a time.) The result is a two way that doesn't have a midrange crisis. That's how it started; the solution was in the crossover. I wind my own inductors and went through stacks of capacitors.
Engineering and design is the biggest determinant of speaker performance, not exotic drivers or exorbitantly priced capacitors.
As for the rest of the rants in this thread, I feel dirty after reading them; like I went to one of those huckster churches where they try to sell you a steaming load of crapola. Science first, then art. That's what worked for me.
EDIT: I have noticed that unlike commercial offerings, DIY speakers (even humble ones) often have a much more elaborate crossover. After rolling my own, I now know why - that's where the biggest gains are.
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You'll never learn a damn thing until you shut your piehole.
This is the basic of basics. It's acoustics 101. If you don't understand this, then the rest of your musings are nothing but **** in the wind, and that's a fact.