Iirc Planet10 had some drawing for Alpair 7 using 2x box. If not it was in the FR subforum some years ago (try maybe with 'studio monitor' within FR subforum in the site search engine).
Go visit Planet10's site it'll be inspiring ( you have direct link in Dave's signature) as well as Scottmoose's one too. It'll be instructive anyway.
Go visit Planet10's site it'll be inspiring ( you have direct link in Dave's signature) as well as Scottmoose's one too. It'll be instructive anyway.
I suspect that was my twin 7.2 box.
There are hundreds of designs using multiple wideband drive units -current and in the past. There is certainly nothing at all new or unusual about that. I've done enough of them, and I'm not exactly alone in that.
Starting with twin-driver types, they can range from designs with both on the front baffle, bipoles (one front, one rear facing driver), 'Castle' types (one forward, one upward firing unit). From there, you can move on to designs using tri or quadratic loading (a driver on each vertical face of a triangular or rectangular cabinet). After that, you're into array variations, with at least four drivers and moving on to larger numbers. They might be line-arrays, focused arrays or Keele-type CBT arrays with all the units arranged in a column, or other variations, such as the classic Sweet 16 of the early 1960s, & ambiance-generating types like the Bose 901.
Most of these, but not all, assume the same type of drive unit, but this isn't exclusive either. Years ago, Thorsten showed his approach to designing a speaker using dissimilar-sized wideband drivers, and there was precedent aplenty for that dating right back to the 1940s & earlier.
There are hundreds of designs using multiple wideband drive units -current and in the past. There is certainly nothing at all new or unusual about that. I've done enough of them, and I'm not exactly alone in that.
Starting with twin-driver types, they can range from designs with both on the front baffle, bipoles (one front, one rear facing driver), 'Castle' types (one forward, one upward firing unit). From there, you can move on to designs using tri or quadratic loading (a driver on each vertical face of a triangular or rectangular cabinet). After that, you're into array variations, with at least four drivers and moving on to larger numbers. They might be line-arrays, focused arrays or Keele-type CBT arrays with all the units arranged in a column, or other variations, such as the classic Sweet 16 of the early 1960s, & ambiance-generating types like the Bose 901. Most of these, but not all, assume the same type of drive unit, but this isn't exclusive either. Years ago, Thorsten showed his approach to designing a speaker using dissimilar-sized wideband drivers, and there was precedent aplenty for that dating right back to the 1940s & earlier.
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Yes Scottmoose that was one of yours i've seen ( i believe).
Very probably this one : http://www.frugal-phile.com/boxlib/woden/MarkAudio-2xA7-DBR-290610.pdf
Dave's links to his site seems to have disapeared from his signature. Maybe i dreamed and mix with yours. He is still on business?
I hope so, their isn't so many offers of ( good) fullrange diy designs, it'll be sad news if it is.
Very probably this one : http://www.frugal-phile.com/boxlib/woden/MarkAudio-2xA7-DBR-290610.pdf
Dave's links to his site seems to have disapeared from his signature. Maybe i dreamed and mix with yours. He is still on business?
I hope so, their isn't so many offers of ( good) fullrange diy designs, it'll be sad news if it is.
The pandemic happened, had to sub in a public health notice.
I am semi-retired now, working to get to the point where i am only doing drawings.
dave
It shouldn't surprise you to know that any time multiple drivers have to play together, crossovers are a design element that can make them play nice.
Look at line arrays. Line arrays are typically made of multiple full range units. Crossovers are typically used to mitigate quarter wave cancellation (which leads to annoying comb filtering) and control directivity. Line arrays are used for sound reinforcement and a well designed one gives very clear, high SPL, highly directional sound. (I'm pretty sure someone has done a hi fi line array.)
Definitely not. See above.
Any time you have two drivers in the same cabinet, you have the potential for undesirable driver interaction. If you're looking for "purity of sound" or whatever nebulous concept motivates you, then you want to work with a single driver. And a well sorted coaxial will give you what you're looking for too; coaxials avoid a lot of the shortcomings of traditional "multi-way" systems and will provide a true "point source" speaker.
Finally, you may have noticed that some of your full range buddies use what they call a "helper" tweeter. This works so well because it is typically crossed over so high that defects don't stand out like they would if you were crossing over at 2-3 kHz. Our ears are most sensitive between 300-3000 Hz, so if you can keep the nasties out of that range then you can design a speaker that at least will provide relatively clear sound.
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I've built three single driver speakers out of a 6.5" or 8" coaxial drivers salvaged from projection TV's left on the curb for the garbage. City will not pick up TVs without a $10 permit. These TVs were high end in the nineties, and provide decent response up to 13 watts. I put drivers on end of a cardboard box, 8"x8"x14", with a 1" square hole poked in the other end. Cavity provides some half decent bass. I use these to listen to TV, which is in a different room than the hifi setup to prevent digital howl into AM radio signals. Much better sound than 1"x3" speakers in a 32" TV. Cost $3.60 for 4 #6 SS screws, 4 elastic stop nuts, 8 washers. Takes a $10 TOSlink to analog converter from ebay. Used a PV-4c 120 w/ch@8 ohms amp until the burglar got it and the speakers. Now I have one cardboard speaker left and use a $40 MMA-875t mono amp, 75 watt. No fan on the MMA. Diyaudio. Reuse, repurpose, recycle, use less resources.
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Yes but they are addictive if the rendering suit your preference ( they are to me). Even with their own set of flaws ( mine operate 80% of time now. I'm missing some of the threeway's attribute but this is the next step: unify both approach ( and use a bigger coax 12" minimum).
Indianajo i like your style and approach. Burglars are a plague.
Would you also accept 6 per side?
Then have a look at this nice OB speakers
:A priori Dipole Open Baffle speakers | Ecobox Fidelity
Supporters for the 'sixpack' are a ripole, which should clearly stay below 200Hz
and a RAAL ribbon, according to a statement on their website acting as a 'pure super tweeter.'
However, unfortunately I did not find any information about the exact XO frequencies.
haha this is a great post.
You mean the snakeoil salesmen ain't going away anytime soon.
Like Tekton, Zu's both have back orders,
I can't stand either. But they sell at top $'s.
The american consumer can get sold quite easy.
I really hate xover/low sens speakers as a main speaker.
Great and necessary as assit for the real Tenor and Soprano, the FR.
Assist are only supporting cast in the opera.
The folks at Audiogon know this is how I believe and am not wanted over there.
FR discussion has no place where Stereophile reviews are the thing for the day.
Some folks are buying into the Tektons and finding out its not high fidelity ,,afterwards.
Its all a sad business whats going on.
Zu's ,,yuckyy , But hype sells,
WOW
I had no idea the DLVX8 is actually a 3 way.
OK so what is the Fostex FE168EZ.
xover at,,,well no has no cone.
hummm this is interesting.
If the FE168EZ has no xover,,, then i do expect the overall sound /mids/bass/highs will be cleaner, tighter, higher fidelity.
You see w/o knowledge of the specs, I;'m buying in the dark, guessing at what might sound the best.
Let me look at the specs on the FE168EZ for xo .
Also let me try to see what you see in the DLVX8 specs.
can you tell me where you got the info/from what spec?
The FE168 has no whizzer = meaning no xover involved?
Which would make a cleaner higher quality midrange presence.
Yes?
The Line Arrays , seem to be *Point Source** type drivers, Not interested.
Yes a helper tweeter, absolute must have
I havea Kasun 3 inch paper double magnet tweeter, had a Mundorf SESGO 2 uf cap (10khz),,, OK great,,then I figured , l lets listen witha Mundorf EVO SG 8 cap,, which takes it down to 5khz, much much better from the Kasun. 5khz is about as low as i want a tweeter to go, but not any higher either.
Richer the better.
Again my DLVX8 + DLW4 is a winner.
I do not hear intemodular(??) distortion,
Just clean life life sound image.
Will the FE168EZ offer evena higher fidelity,, yes I am expecting the Fostex to out perform the Davidlouis in midrange, perhaps also bass, and in fact highs as well.
But it all comes down to the core mids , say 300hz-...Lets say 3khz.
In my research last year, only glanced at Fostex, did not investigate further.
It will be a interesting shootout.
And will post ASAP on the results.
My money is on the FE168EZ.
But will be fair and unbiased.
may the best speaker win.
Only 1 gets the cigar.
Coaxials, No don't want a Coaxial, nor concentric.
I;m a FR fan-atic.
A full range driver is point source. Anyway, my point is that you were talking about multiple full range drivers in one box, and I pointed out the methods to make that work. Because you can't just put them together in a box and expect them to play nice together.
You can wish the laws of physics away all you want, but you will never succeed. I suppose you will be motivated to learn when you hit that wall.
Not really. If the meaning of point source were stretched that far then it would have to begin to apply to some multi-way speakers too.
PK
gpot it, Yes small FR make a line array but needs xover circuit
Out my ability to work out.
I think I've found the solution to my speaker quest.
I really do.
The answer lies in the Fostex line of speakers.
I'm sure of it.
Out of that mass of models,,all have their +'s, -
s,, it seems this
Sigma series looks awaefully close to the sound I'm after here for classical music.
Line array is just too much for near field.
I'm not looking for huge soundstage/high SPL, just a humble single FR with assist.
Again, wish to thank the board for giving me directions , as you know I was going around in circles and getting more confused as it went on.
This board has allowed me to feel confident in the Sigma's performance.
As I am down to my last $'s in this quest.
Will report back.
The OP is about Multi way meaning xover/low sens types is what he was refering to.
And asked, what about this FR Coherence of a FR, is it for real or imagnative.
In his 2nd post 1st page.
I have to read through all the posts , I know his Q's were properly answered and wonder if he ever came around to FR as not only The Ideal Musical Experience Speaker, but for me, the only choise for real high fideklity.
vs horns , ESL, Panels which have issues.
some need big power, Horns flea watt amps, horns /stats big heavy , ugly, etc etc,,expenisve...this list of issues could be extended..
Really FR speakers w assist, is something special , unique.
My Seas Thors MTM Excell drivers, had some of these qualities, but are no match for a high fidelity FR.
For several reasons it is **Flawed** next to a higher end FR.
All the reasons you guys know too well.
I put $800+ in new Mundorf high end cap xovers + New Millenniums ($750), all for little nunace gains.
I thought it would be transformed into a **Super Thor**.
Wrong, cold water bucket on my head.
When my tech was leaving after hook up, put on my #1 test cd Sophie Milman,, his look on his face was like **eh..** at that point I knew from his look, something is **flawed** about xover/low sens types,
It was at that moment i went full force into researching FR as a option.
Somehow missed Fostex.
Due to several factors, were overlooked on my radar.
Multi xover/low sens types, yes diansuars as main speaker. Flawed.
Wilson has a model for the Dubai Oil Sheiks at $900G+, worthless garbage, as they offer distortion = fatigue.
FR rules.
FR higher end, can make close to same magic as a high end horn and stat/ESL, but with no bagage, no Caveats, added issues.
A I see the columns
I note all +'s in the FR column, and too many -'s in the low sens/xover types, such as Troel Gravesen is busy with in his lab.
I note few if any -s in the FR column and hardly any +'s in the low sens/xover types.
The one thing that grates my nerves more than anything about traditional commercial types is the paper woofers resonances in the 120hz+ band width, the muddyness, roughness, coloration.
Man that grates my nerves, Which **They** can't/refuse to hear.
fatiguefatigue, what suffering.
anyway my rant for the day.
gpot it, Yes small FR make a line array but needs xover circuit
Out my ability to work out.
I think I've found the solution to my speaker quest.
I really do.
The answer lies in the Fostex line of speakers.
I'm sure of it.
Out of that mass of models,,all have their +'s, -
s,, it seems this
Sigma series looks awaefully close to the sound I'm after here for classical music.
Line array is just too much for near field.
I'm not looking for huge soundstage/high SPL, just a humble single FR with assist.
Again, wish to thank the board for giving me directions , as you know I was going around in circles and getting more confused as it went on.
This board has allowed me to feel confident in the Sigma's performance.
As I am down to my last $'s in this quest.
Will report back.
The OP is about Multi way meaning xover/low sens types is what he was refering to.
And asked, what about this FR Coherence of a FR, is it for real or imagnative.
In his 2nd post 1st page.
I have to read through all the posts , I know his Q's were properly answered and wonder if he ever came around to FR as not only The Ideal Musical Experience Speaker, but for me, the only choise for real high fideklity.
vs horns , ESL, Panels which have issues.
some need big power, Horns flea watt amps, horns /stats big heavy , ugly, etc etc,,expenisve...this list of issues could be extended..
Really FR speakers w assist, is something special , unique.
My Seas Thors MTM Excell drivers, had some of these qualities, but are no match for a high fidelity FR.
For several reasons it is **Flawed** next to a higher end FR.
All the reasons you guys know too well.
I put $800+ in new Mundorf high end cap xovers + New Millenniums ($750), all for little nunace gains.
I thought it would be transformed into a **Super Thor**.
Wrong, cold water bucket on my head.
When my tech was leaving after hook up, put on my #1 test cd Sophie Milman,, his look on his face was like **eh..** at that point I knew from his look, something is **flawed** about xover/low sens types,
It was at that moment i went full force into researching FR as a option.
Somehow missed Fostex.
Due to several factors, were overlooked on my radar.
Multi xover/low sens types, yes diansuars as main speaker. Flawed.
Wilson has a model for the Dubai Oil Sheiks at $900G+, worthless garbage, as they offer distortion = fatigue.
FR rules.
FR higher end, can make close to same magic as a high end horn and stat/ESL, but with no bagage, no Caveats, added issues.
A I see the columns
I note all +'s in the FR column, and too many -'s in the low sens/xover types, such as Troel Gravesen is busy with in his lab.
I note few if any -s in the FR column and hardly any +'s in the low sens/xover types.
The one thing that grates my nerves more than anything about traditional commercial types is the paper woofers resonances in the 120hz+ band width, the muddyness, roughness, coloration.
Man that grates my nerves, Which **They** can't/refuse to hear.
fatiguefatigue, what suffering.
anyway my rant for the day.
I have a Dayton 4 point Source, Its OK, but not near like the DavidLouis true FR W4.
Which is why I am not so sure I would accept a PS Line Array, Sure Dayton W4 PS is cheap, maybe better out there,, still I did not hear same finesse in FQ response as the DLW4 FR.
PS and FR, about the same duty, but not the same in performance.
At least thats my limited exp.
I'd say FR has more fidelity.
Which is what we are all after here.
Some multi-way speakers have been marketed as "point source."
VINTAGE Design Acoustics PS-8b Point Source Loudspeaker Bookshelf Speakers Pair | eBay