Hello,
Been trying to crossover Peerless by Tymphany DX20BF00-08 and Dayton Audio DC160S-8 6-1/2" for quite some time now and below is the most flatish-response I could get out of them.
The question is, would crossing these drivers at around 930Hz be a problem? the frequency response graph of the tweeter seem to be ok starting 800?Hz which seem to be pretty low for a tweeter?
Also here is my final version of the crossover design, what would your constructive criticisms be?
Been trying to crossover Peerless by Tymphany DX20BF00-08 and Dayton Audio DC160S-8 6-1/2" for quite some time now and below is the most flatish-response I could get out of them.
The question is, would crossing these drivers at around 930Hz be a problem? the frequency response graph of the tweeter seem to be ok starting 800?Hz which seem to be pretty low for a tweeter?
Also here is my final version of the crossover design, what would your constructive criticisms be?
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Yes, it would be a problem. That will be pushing the tweeter a lot, to say the least.
It is a nice little driver but should be used from min 2K5 or higher.
Here is a commercial design you may want to check out:
Totem Acoustic Skylight loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
It is a nice little driver but should be used from min 2K5 or higher.
Here is a commercial design you may want to check out:
Totem Acoustic Skylight loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
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Basic rule of the thumb with tweeters is to cross at least 2 times or more the Fc, and account for the distortion profiles, SPL required etc.
Of course you can try your xo and report back.
Of course you can try your xo and report back.
Paul Carmody has a Dayton DC160-8 design here, Classix II :
Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Pages - Classix II
Try modelling it. He is a safe pair of hands.
Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Pages - Classix II
Try modelling it. He is a safe pair of hands.
Steve beat me to it: the Classix II is an excellent speaker, I really like ours. Crossover point is about 2,000 Hz, I think. Relaxed, smooth sound, well suited to less than ideal recordings. Many people have built the Classix and love them.
The Vifa BC25 used in it is a really nice tweeter: it's 1", compared to the 3/4" DX20.
The DC160 is also used in Dennis Murphy's "Murphy Blaster" re-design of the Dayton BR-1 kit crossover, uses the Dayton DC28F tweeter. I haven't heard it but would like to experiment with it one day.
Geoff
The Vifa BC25 used in it is a really nice tweeter: it's 1", compared to the 3/4" DX20.
The DC160 is also used in Dennis Murphy's "Murphy Blaster" re-design of the Dayton BR-1 kit crossover, uses the Dayton DC28F tweeter. I haven't heard it but would like to experiment with it one day.
Geoff
Well find, Geoff,,,
Dennis Murphy discusses the slightly modded shielded version too. Again, worth modelling with any tweeter you fancy.
MurphyBlaster Productions
Quite a low crossover again. About 1.8kHz. Needs a good tweeter.
Dennis Murphy discusses the slightly modded shielded version too. Again, worth modelling with any tweeter you fancy.
MurphyBlaster Productions
Quite a low crossover again. About 1.8kHz. Needs a good tweeter.
Unfortunately I have already bought the tweeters so changing them would present unwanted cost 🙁
I was suggesting you model the various bass circuits and then fit your tweeter in.
Tweeters are all much the same as it goes. You seem to have the modelling tools already.
Tweeters are all much the same as it goes. You seem to have the modelling tools already.
I have tried copying the woofer crossover design from the CLASSIX II but the frequency response looks totally different than his. Even though I copied the components and circuit exactly!
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Have you bought the DC160s as well as the DX20? I ask because the DC160 seems happiest crossed over at around 2,000Hz or less. A two way with the DC160 and DX20 could prove difficult to implement, but a different woofer option might work better. Maybe something like the SB Acoustics SB16, which is here (Oz) cheaper than the Daytons.
I can also tell you from experience that taking part of a crossover from one design and trying to adapt to another doesn't usually work well: I've tried it and failed miserably.
Geoff
I can also tell you from experience that taking part of a crossover from one design and trying to adapt to another doesn't usually work well: I've tried it and failed miserably.
Geoff
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Unfortunately yes, I have bought both drivers already, and their crossover components but wouldnt mind giving up on them for a better(ish?) sound.
That was a huge image. Made my browser go bonkers...
Looks like the bafflestep is wildly wrong. Looks like wallmounted or large IEE baffle. Are you modelling the box? Time-alignment or acoustic offset often goes wrong with inexperience too.
I have no idea what the shielded version does different, but Dennis Murphy seems to have done a version. Looks a hideous frequency response on that woofer to me, as it goes.
Looks like the bafflestep is wildly wrong. Looks like wallmounted or large IEE baffle. Are you modelling the box? Time-alignment or acoustic offset often goes wrong with inexperience too.
I have no idea what the shielded version does different, but Dennis Murphy seems to have done a version. Looks a hideous frequency response on that woofer to me, as it goes.
In your position, I'd be tempted to buy the Vifa BC25s, sell the Peerless - which are very nice tweeters by all accounts - and build the Classix IIs.
The Classix II uses the un-shielded version of the DC160, I'm not sure if yours would require a slight crossover change. If you do decide to build them, I suggest posting a question on this forum or Parts Express Tech Talk and ask the question.
Honestly, your choice is between something which is proved to work well, versus something which will need a heap of work and may not sound good. The extra cost should offset any swear word output...
However, before you even think about that, I suggest checking out the many builder and customer reviews on this Forum, Parts Express, Meniscus etc to get an idea of whether you would like the sound.
Geoff
The Classix II uses the un-shielded version of the DC160, I'm not sure if yours would require a slight crossover change. If you do decide to build them, I suggest posting a question on this forum or Parts Express Tech Talk and ask the question.
Honestly, your choice is between something which is proved to work well, versus something which will need a heap of work and may not sound good. The extra cost should offset any swear word output...
However, before you even think about that, I suggest checking out the many builder and customer reviews on this Forum, Parts Express, Meniscus etc to get an idea of whether you would like the sound.
Geoff
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Edit to above message: I've loaded the official FRD and ZMA files into Xsim for the Dc160 and Dc160S, they're almost identical, so (I think) the XO wouldn't need any changes. I've put a screenshot at the end of this post.
However, the Fs for the DC160 is 35.7Hz v 30.3Hz for the shielded and the VAS is 17.9l for the DC160 and 22.5l for the shielded. I don't know enough to advise you on whether those differences might need tweaking the cabinet dimensions a little.
If you do go down that path, I suggest posting the question on this Forum or Parts express Tech Talk. Someone must have used the shielded version in their build.
Geoff
However, the Fs for the DC160 is 35.7Hz v 30.3Hz for the shielded and the VAS is 17.9l for the DC160 and 22.5l for the shielded. I don't know enough to advise you on whether those differences might need tweaking the cabinet dimensions a little.
If you do go down that path, I suggest posting the question on this Forum or Parts express Tech Talk. Someone must have used the shielded version in their build.
Geoff
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Haha sorry for the huge image! I haven't done anything regarding the box, I only imported the FRD and ZMA as they are from the official website!
I have actually thought about buying the Vifa BC25s but searching everywhere they dont seem to be available in stock! so even if I wanted to go this route it wouldn't work unfortunately.
So in your opinion I shouldn't go with my own design and follow someone with better experience? I dont see how "bad" the sound could be, this is my first crossover build if it wasn't obvious.
I have done a "new" crossover with the exact same drivers I own and I came up with this, crossed at about 1700Hz
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I think your modelling is going wrong here. Not much difference between the two driver versions:
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-306-dayton-audio-dc160s-8-specifications-46147.pdf
https://www.daytonaudio.com/images/resources/295-305-dayton-audio-dc160-8-specifications-46146.pdf
The tweeter:
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-1474--tymphany-dx20bf00-08-spec-sheet.pdf
The woofer is high inductance, so everyone is using about 8R plus 47uF impedance correction. With about 1mH/10uF in front. 68uH is 0.068mH, a silly small value.
You must include the box and the time or distance offset for the drivers. And about 2.5kHz crossover on third order IMO. Like Carmody.
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-306-dayton-audio-dc160s-8-specifications-46147.pdf
https://www.daytonaudio.com/images/resources/295-305-dayton-audio-dc160-8-specifications-46146.pdf
The tweeter:
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-1474--tymphany-dx20bf00-08-spec-sheet.pdf
The woofer is high inductance, so everyone is using about 8R plus 47uF impedance correction. With about 1mH/10uF in front. 68uH is 0.068mH, a silly small value.
You must include the box and the time or distance offset for the drivers. And about 2.5kHz crossover on third order IMO. Like Carmody.
If this is your first DIY project, 'yes', depending of course what you want to achieve, how heavily you want to get into the hobby, etc. But if this is your first and only pair, I think you would want to build something you know will sound good: your family/friends will listen and say 'you built that and it cost how much?!'
I've built five pairs of speakers and only one where I tried to design my own crossover: it doesn't sound 'bad' or make my ears bleed but it just lacks 'something', mainly in the mid-range. In particular, female pop/rock vocals are just a bit dull compared to the others.
In messing around with that design, my first crossover was purely based on Xsim and makers' data and it sounded awful! Harsh, bright and way out of balance. After changing some parts, which on paper simmed worse than No. 1, I got them to sound a lot better.
So yes, the sound of a poor crossover can be 'bad' enough to make your speakers un-listenable.
Geoff
I rarely give up on a speaker... but this one is a bit to the cheap and cheerful end. 😀
Question marks over the 6" woofer and cheapie 3/4" tweeter really.
Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Pages - Classix II
Paul Carmody has done a competent job here. 15L of reflex. 4" x 1.5" port. Quite typical. He uses the much louder Vifa 1" tweeter which can cross at 2.5kHz comfortably.
Crossover is, er, idiosyncratic. 🙄
I ran a rough sim with impedance equalisation. Bits marked in red are select on test. As is the impedance correction. All looks doable to me, but the more modern bigger coil and damped shunt does much the same thing, albeit with more bafflestep.
I would leave room for a better bigger 104mm tweeter when building. Could get you out of jail. And learn to use a sim properly. Bass loading, box size and acoustic offset are important to get right.
Question marks over the 6" woofer and cheapie 3/4" tweeter really.
Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Pages - Classix II
Paul Carmody has done a competent job here. 15L of reflex. 4" x 1.5" port. Quite typical. He uses the much louder Vifa 1" tweeter which can cross at 2.5kHz comfortably.
Crossover is, er, idiosyncratic. 🙄
I ran a rough sim with impedance equalisation. Bits marked in red are select on test. As is the impedance correction. All looks doable to me, but the more modern bigger coil and damped shunt does much the same thing, albeit with more bafflestep.
I would leave room for a better bigger 104mm tweeter when building. Could get you out of jail. And learn to use a sim properly. Bass loading, box size and acoustic offset are important to get right.
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