Greetings everyone!
For many many years I have wanted to build a set of speakers but for reason after reason have never taken the plunge...but now is the time. I'm hoping for some guidance from those who know way more than I do. I searched these forums to the best of my ability and didn't come up with a ton for what I'm looking for. It's quite obvious the prevailing wisdom for someone like me who has never built a set of speakers is to go with a proven design...but I don't seem to be finding much for what at least I feel I am looking for.
Most of what I listen to is heavy metal and I want to build something authoritative, something where the double bass is a good punch in the chest. These will be going in a basement, box size really not a huge problem. From everything I read a good 3-way is the way to go with one (or two) good size woofers doing the heavy lifting. I read through the following which seemed to corroborate my original thinking... https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/226265-speakers-heavy-metal-matters-13.html .
I had found the tarkus build which is also mentioned in that thread and that had interested me but I am afraid the one 10" might leave me wishing I had more...2 10's...12 or 15. Unfortunately I don't know where to start on moding that design in such ways and have been unable to find a build that has.
I am open to any and all suggestions and am sure there are a ton of builds I just have been unable to find that may fit my needs. I thank everyone in advance for your help and guidance!
For many many years I have wanted to build a set of speakers but for reason after reason have never taken the plunge...but now is the time. I'm hoping for some guidance from those who know way more than I do. I searched these forums to the best of my ability and didn't come up with a ton for what I'm looking for. It's quite obvious the prevailing wisdom for someone like me who has never built a set of speakers is to go with a proven design...but I don't seem to be finding much for what at least I feel I am looking for.
Most of what I listen to is heavy metal and I want to build something authoritative, something where the double bass is a good punch in the chest. These will be going in a basement, box size really not a huge problem. From everything I read a good 3-way is the way to go with one (or two) good size woofers doing the heavy lifting. I read through the following which seemed to corroborate my original thinking... https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/226265-speakers-heavy-metal-matters-13.html .
I had found the tarkus build which is also mentioned in that thread and that had interested me but I am afraid the one 10" might leave me wishing I had more...2 10's...12 or 15. Unfortunately I don't know where to start on moding that design in such ways and have been unable to find a build that has.
I am open to any and all suggestions and am sure there are a ton of builds I just have been unable to find that may fit my needs. I thank everyone in advance for your help and guidance!
Room size? Is the basement finished? How much power is available to drive them?
I doubt you have a little 3W amp trying to pump double bass out at 115dB into a cathedral here, but knowing the environment is going to be important in steering you the right way on this one.
I doubt you have a little 3W amp trying to pump double bass out at 115dB into a cathedral here, but knowing the environment is going to be important in steering you the right way on this one.
Well I don't have great or specific answers for such and I realize that makes this more difficult but perhaps not. This will be a new build in all ways. I will be in time acquiring an amp appropriate for speakers I end up building. The area the speakers will be in is an unfinished section of the basement, 8' ceilings and say 30' by 50' without taking specific measurements so not a small, but not a huge space. While I don't need to shake the china off the neighbors shelves I am afraid of an underwhelming build...I want good punch. For reference my lowly TV setup is a set of pioneer andrew jones towers and surrounds with an SVS 12" ported sub powered by a denon x1300. Nothing amazing but not a HTIB either. To start with my plan was to build the speakers and perhaps power them with that receiver while I get a proper amplifier which doesn't break the bank as I know they can get rather ridiculous in cost. Budget for the speakers, give or take 1K. While reading the thread I had linked in original post it seemed a common consensus is active crossovers where the way to go and while I need to do a lot more learning in that arena I am not opposed. I hope that helps.
I built the Tarkus years ago and I can't recommend it, especially not for rock/metal. The have a midbass suckout and a directivity mismatch in the mid/tweeter crossover which makes it just sound harsh.
As your first project maybe don’t go over the top. What about a simple 12” coaxial 2-way design in a vintage monitor cabinet look (like klipsch herresy, JBL 4319 etc). It won’t be the most accurate speaker but much fun I’m doing a couple of those myself these days. Then maybe a sub for the <60Hz if the room is too big.
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The original Karlson enclosure "K15" from 1951 has excellent punch and articulation. (moreso than some front loaded horns and more than reflex)
You might run a horn or two on top to gather clarity over a coaxial. OR a slotted pipe "K-tube" tweeter.
With a small adjustment, an 18" can be squeezed into K15 which will give a more ripe upper bass.
(Karlson actually marketed a "K18")
Moving mass should be kept low for Karlson duty, an xmax of 3mm will probably suffice.
A K12 with favorable driver has a lot of punch and should be augmented with a subwoofer below 80Hz.
You might run a horn or two on top to gather clarity over a coaxial. OR a slotted pipe "K-tube" tweeter.
With a small adjustment, an 18" can be squeezed into K15 which will give a more ripe upper bass.
(Karlson actually marketed a "K18")
Moving mass should be kept low for Karlson duty, an xmax of 3mm will probably suffice.
A K12 with favorable driver has a lot of punch and should be augmented with a subwoofer below 80Hz.
Buy some old JPW AP2 or AP3 (you may need to replace or repair the drivers due to foam rot), and buy or build a subwoofer of two to fill in the low end. Eminence Lab12 in sealed enclosures, and with a meaty amp would be my choice.
You'll get very clean, open mids, detailed treble, and awesome bass from the Lab12.
You'll get very clean, open mids, detailed treble, and awesome bass from the Lab12.
Build a PA type cabinet.
Most efficient/loudest type of speaker out there, and the proper type.
After all, at a live concert, you listen to the band through that kind of speakers!!!!!
Most efficient/loudest type of speaker out there, and the proper type.
After all, at a live concert, you listen to the band through that kind of speakers!!!!!
I second JMFahey..
Check out diysoundgroup Titan 818 - I'm not affiliated.
Horn loaded mids rule...
I prefer closed box bass, EQd to taste. Get a DSP 🙂
Check out diysoundgroup Titan 818 - I'm not affiliated.
Horn loaded mids rule...
I prefer closed box bass, EQd to taste. Get a DSP 🙂
I would second that. You get a proven design straight forward build and some support. It'll be a $1300-1400 build.
Thank you everyone so far, you've definitely shaken up what my original thoughts were on this project. Being relatively new to the world of Hifi (my only real experience with building a system was car audio) I seemed to have had a lot of what appear to be misperceptions on what would get me what I wanted. Not knowing much or any about horn loaded drivers and anything but traditional drivers leaves a lot of learning for sure. I just assumed this would end up in some sort of 3 way speaker with 1 or 2 10" drivers as anything larger would be 'sloppy', 1 or 2 ~6" drivers for mid duty due to the dynamics? of the music, and a standard tweeter for highs.
It seems the consensus is some combination of a big woofer and a tweeter. To my uneducated mind I have a hard time wrapping my head around how a big woofer can do what I see as sort of double duty - playing blistering bass drum while covering the mid frequencies as well and still being crisp and punchy?
Those Titan 818's definitely are beastly, that 18" I'm sure just rips. Definitely will look more into that but definitely at the higher end of what I wanted to spend before figuring in amplification, and it sounds like those things need a good amount to sing.
The karlsons I seen mentioned in some other posts and I'll admit after seeing pictures of them the first time I kinda didn't give them the proper time of day. I am gonna do some looking for builds / mods of them with horns as suggested but if anyone knows of a good starting point there I would be much abliged.
That asathor also looks interesting as well, gonna read through that build now.
It seems the consensus is some combination of a big woofer and a tweeter. To my uneducated mind I have a hard time wrapping my head around how a big woofer can do what I see as sort of double duty - playing blistering bass drum while covering the mid frequencies as well and still being crisp and punchy?
Those Titan 818's definitely are beastly, that 18" I'm sure just rips. Definitely will look more into that but definitely at the higher end of what I wanted to spend before figuring in amplification, and it sounds like those things need a good amount to sing.
The karlsons I seen mentioned in some other posts and I'll admit after seeing pictures of them the first time I kinda didn't give them the proper time of day. I am gonna do some looking for builds / mods of them with horns as suggested but if anyone knows of a good starting point there I would be much abliged.
That asathor also looks interesting as well, gonna read through that build now.
We are talking PA speakers here.
Woofers reach much higher (and are much louder) than typical Hi Fi woofers, but more important: those huge horns reach down enough to meet the woofer leaving no hole in the middle.
I loved the project name,"Asathor" is a killer name for a Doom metal band from H*ll 😉
If way beyond possibilities, seach for smaller versions (but still same idea behind)
Such as:
BUILD THIS! 15" two-way PA cabinet design - Celestion
but not much less.
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I’m sure the 12” version is powerful enough as well for home use metal. Metal music need fast big bass, not necessarily the deepest subs I think 12” is a very good compromise probably with some better mids.
BUILD THIS! Compact 12" two-way PA cabinet design - Celestion
BUILD THIS! Compact 12" two-way PA cabinet design - Celestion
Here is one of the coax designs I’m inspired by in my current project.
DIY Home Hi-Fi kit with coaxial driver - Celestion
But I’m using the more recent driver from this kit:
BUILD THIS! 12-inch Coaxial Floor Monitor - Celestion
DIY Home Hi-Fi kit with coaxial driver - Celestion
But I’m using the more recent driver from this kit:
BUILD THIS! 12-inch Coaxial Floor Monitor - Celestion
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The "problem" with PA 2-ways is perhaps bass, when we think about hifi. Most of them are ported and tuned around 45-50Hz. I don't listen to heavy, but some bands use eg. 5-string bass guitars that play lower than that. As well bass drum thump suffers from bass reflex's high group delay, compared to closed box bass. If one adds a subwoofer, getting snappy bass gets even more difficult.
So, my recommendation is a 3-way speaker with closed box and double 8" or 10" woofers (perhaps a single 12" will do) . In a small room you don't even need equalization to get good bass down to 30Hz, with minimal group delay. If the room is large or you listen very loud for long periods (not very wise without earplugs), use at least 2x12" woofers and some sort of room EQ (and at least 200W amps)
I also recommend making it active with minidsp or Hypex FA
The problem is that I couln't find a project or recipe to recommend... but I have this project of modified 3-way with 2x8" closed box here
Avalanche AS1 modernization
So, my recommendation is a 3-way speaker with closed box and double 8" or 10" woofers (perhaps a single 12" will do) . In a small room you don't even need equalization to get good bass down to 30Hz, with minimal group delay. If the room is large or you listen very loud for long periods (not very wise without earplugs), use at least 2x12" woofers and some sort of room EQ (and at least 200W amps)
I also recommend making it active with minidsp or Hypex FA
The problem is that I couln't find a project or recipe to recommend... but I have this project of modified 3-way with 2x8" closed box here
Avalanche AS1 modernization
The room isn’t exactly small. And with rather minimal acoustic measures, some directivity control would be welcome. That, along with the budget, led to my advice on the ‘JBL clone’.
Juhazi that soapstone cabinet is quite something, at first look I thought it was a box covered in countertop laminate...which seemed like an interesting choice.
markbakk thank you for the asathor build suggestion, after reading through it all I'm rather sold. If I'm not mistaken it checks many of the boxes for what's been suggested (PA type speaker with larger driver and compression/horn). The driver and crossover cost seems very reasonable, and the build seems quite simple. For a first project I don't want to make the classic rookie mistake of biting of more than I can chew or tossing to much money at a speaker build I end up not liking. The killer name doesn't hurt either!
JMFahey thanks for the simple explanation, and for whomever it was that posted earlier about how it's all PA speakers at the shows, well that just makes sense.
Any more suggestions, thoughts, or helpful resources for a rookie I'd love to hear. Want to do more research and looking around but those Asathor's definitely at the top of my list. The 3 way Titan 818LX most definitely looks like a hell of a speaker but might just be a bit to much in many ways at this point.
markbakk thank you for the asathor build suggestion, after reading through it all I'm rather sold. If I'm not mistaken it checks many of the boxes for what's been suggested (PA type speaker with larger driver and compression/horn). The driver and crossover cost seems very reasonable, and the build seems quite simple. For a first project I don't want to make the classic rookie mistake of biting of more than I can chew or tossing to much money at a speaker build I end up not liking. The killer name doesn't hurt either!
JMFahey thanks for the simple explanation, and for whomever it was that posted earlier about how it's all PA speakers at the shows, well that just makes sense.
Any more suggestions, thoughts, or helpful resources for a rookie I'd love to hear. Want to do more research and looking around but those Asathor's definitely at the top of my list. The 3 way Titan 818LX most definitely looks like a hell of a speaker but might just be a bit to much in many ways at this point.
As far as metal is concerned... That's a big range of sounds depending what niches you're into.
I will say the 3 ways I've used seemed to be more coherent at higher volumes with more complicated music like metal. I am not saying a 2 way cannot cut it, just that I've not found one that worked as well. I also advocate for subwoofers when it comes to some metal. If using a 2 way speaker, I would definitely consider incorporating subs.
My friend who is a metalhead and likes it loud is a big fan of 15" drivers as being the smallest bass driver in his mains. He dreams of a 15", 6-8" mid and HF. I saw that Troels does a version of The Loudspeaker similar in theory where he goes down to a 15" driver. I'm starting to come around to this as well. I have 12" sealed subs that do well, but if they were 15" I think I'd be happier.
With PA drivers, a 12 or 15" will play low, but subs built right will play lower. I feel it a good compromise of effortless sound and low end extension. I like speakers that keep it clean, and some pro stuff is great at that, as there is enough distortion already in some metal haha. If you listen to bands with lots of bass drops etc, that low end ability is sooooo worth it.
I will say the 3 ways I've used seemed to be more coherent at higher volumes with more complicated music like metal. I am not saying a 2 way cannot cut it, just that I've not found one that worked as well. I also advocate for subwoofers when it comes to some metal. If using a 2 way speaker, I would definitely consider incorporating subs.
My friend who is a metalhead and likes it loud is a big fan of 15" drivers as being the smallest bass driver in his mains. He dreams of a 15", 6-8" mid and HF. I saw that Troels does a version of The Loudspeaker similar in theory where he goes down to a 15" driver. I'm starting to come around to this as well. I have 12" sealed subs that do well, but if they were 15" I think I'd be happier.
With PA drivers, a 12 or 15" will play low, but subs built right will play lower. I feel it a good compromise of effortless sound and low end extension. I like speakers that keep it clean, and some pro stuff is great at that, as there is enough distortion already in some metal haha. If you listen to bands with lots of bass drops etc, that low end ability is sooooo worth it.
