I've used them pointed at me like normal speakers. They are in small metal pots for ceiling mount.. The sound "OK" but nothing special. I'll try them in the up firing direction tomorrow.
Actually for my experiments I have used KEF CI200 speaker marketed as in-ceiling.
There is plenty of quality in-ceiling speakers from many audiophile brands from Focal, KEF or Monitor Audio to Martin Logan or Sonus Faber.
Problem with them is that no system using them will ever get reviewed by the audiophile press, traditional or on-line. They are just a different kind of product*. This makes them non-audiophile per se. So not worthy of any attention.
*after all, as John Watkinson once aptly put it, "audiophile loudspeaker is in fact subset of carpentry"
There is plenty of quality in-ceiling speakers from many audiophile brands from Focal, KEF or Monitor Audio to Martin Logan or Sonus Faber.
Problem with them is that no system using them will ever get reviewed by the audiophile press, traditional or on-line. They are just a different kind of product*. This makes them non-audiophile per se. So not worthy of any attention.
*after all, as John Watkinson once aptly put it, "audiophile loudspeaker is in fact subset of carpentry"
Oh, I see. I thought You had a system with in-ceiling loudspeakers.
Happy experimenting then.
Ps. some inspiration:
6moons audio reviews: Polking fun at DIY speakers
(and an exception to the rule from my previous post)
Sorry, I wasn't clear. No I have the 4 JBLs not installed. Later today I'll try them pointing up sitting un the floor and sitting on a support. I did not buy the subwoofers with these, that might have been a mistake.
It's a pity my room isn't bigger, I think it could work quite well, it seems too small for "omni". Back to normal near field listening the sound is less muddled, perhaps in my situation separate ambience speakers would work better?
one solution for some ceilings might be making a "klam" like Karlson's AP9C ceiling speaker which was well known by 1964 as mentioned in the HiFi Workbench show that's recently posted.
If using a speaker with central dome tweeter, then a K-tube can be attached to that dome to extend the HF exit to the main aperture's plane.
AP9C used a 6X9 inch speaker
https://i.imgur.com/ljcSzja.jpg
If using a speaker with central dome tweeter, then a K-tube can be attached to that dome to extend the HF exit to the main aperture's plane.
AP9C used a 6X9 inch speaker
https://i.imgur.com/ljcSzja.jpg
I tired my JBL ceiling speakers is an up-firing mode. They worked and were reasonably omni directional. Getting off to one side where a speaker was between me and the other speaker wasn't great. But that's extreme.
Overall I didn't feel that they imaged well and they sounded dull. Not too surprising with the tweeter in a little wavegude. See photo below. Might have been missing some upper mid from the cone, too. Played in a normal mode facing the listener they were much nicer.
They probably need a cone shaped reflector above them, like so many omnis use. Interestingly the metal grills do have a thin layer of poly batting on them which does help spread the sound a little.
Overall I didn't feel that they imaged well and they sounded dull. Not too surprising with the tweeter in a little wavegude. See photo below. Might have been missing some upper mid from the cone, too. Played in a normal mode facing the listener they were much nicer.
They probably need a cone shaped reflector above them, like so many omnis use. Interestingly the metal grills do have a thin layer of poly batting on them which does help spread the sound a little.
Attachments
...so, one explanation may be that in case of hard panned sources on dry recordings there is zero spatial cues in the recording for the formation of the virtual source, in result there are only spatial cues present to our hearing that point in the direction of the real source, that is the loudspeaker, which in case of the FCUFS is situated low on the floor
FCUFS is not universal setup, it doesn't work with crappy recordings
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Which is odd, because they are designed for down firing use. That's just a 180 degree flip. Many up-firing omnis use sound spreaders, probably for good reason. I'm not sure that would work with these speaker, tho.
It was worth a try, for sure.
yet not just a flip because the listening angle is different, which can bring significantly different results
besides those JBLs seem to be nothing special
taking both factors combined it's no wonder You weren't ...floored 😛 yeah, pun intended 😉
IDK
All I know is that Holland is a great jazzman and I also know that a stereo recording that doesn't contain realistic spatial cues sucks. In other words it's a crappy stereo recording.
It may work as a great mono recording though.
All I know is that Holland is a great jazzman and I also know that a stereo recording that doesn't contain realistic spatial cues sucks. In other words it's a crappy stereo recording.
It may work as a great mono recording though.
I was surprised that for a modern recording the lead brass were panned hard left and right. I tend not to enjoy that although it may be realistic. It certainly didn't work well with the speakers on the floor.
it's not just the question of a sound source being panned hard left or right, also all distance and elevation cues must be missing
Putting speaker on the floor and next to side walls would be logical. But it is also true that elevation and other cues must be missing.
And that is the sad part that even theoretical best scenario for stereo reproduction doesn't exist for the records we listen to. In anechoic chamber with perfect crosstalk cancelation in one tiny sweet spot you could transfer pressure perfectly to ear drum theoretically, but it still will be very far from the perfection everybody is looking for, because of the wrong stereo encoding and the way how stereo is created. And every stereo track is created differently.
So there is no perfect solution, and if it sounds good than it is the correct setup🙄
And that is the sad part that even theoretical best scenario for stereo reproduction doesn't exist for the records we listen to. In anechoic chamber with perfect crosstalk cancelation in one tiny sweet spot you could transfer pressure perfectly to ear drum theoretically, but it still will be very far from the perfection everybody is looking for, because of the wrong stereo encoding and the way how stereo is created. And every stereo track is created differently.
So there is no perfect solution, and if it sounds good than it is the correct setup🙄
another way of intergrating the L and R channel louspeakers into the side walls while avoiding the floor reflection can be implemented
the original title of this thread was "Loudspeakers and room as a system"
Very nice, what angle did you cut them at? Was it calculated in anyway or just that'll be a nice angle type of thing?
Which is odd, because they are designed for down firing use. That's just a 180 degree flip. Many up-firing omnis use sound spreaders, probably for good reason. I'm not sure that would work with these speaker, tho.
It was worth a try, for sure.
I was recently experimenting with my Tannoy XT Mini tilting them up toward the ceiling and then playing pool with them so that they would bounce back down at the seating location. There was to my complete surprise no sense of loss of high end and the stage and image was remarkable I think the most realistic I have ever experienced. This is something that I want to continue to work with.